Rhona/Talitha: Found a loneliness is a really big thing. If you’re a sole founder, it’s much lonelier [00:00:05] than people having co-founders. And there’s some people that fail at their first Start-Up, and it’s only them they actually [00:00:10] prefer. They’re like quite traumatised at the loneliness aspect of it on every level. You know, we’ve.

Payman Langroudi: All [00:00:15] started a business. Yeah. And it’s quite interesting that if you tell friends and family, [00:00:20] I’ve got this idea yours was a hair salon, was it? Yeah.

Rhona/Talitha: Well it was. Yeah. [00:00:25] Exactly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or you were going to do what you did. I remember you pitching it at me, telling me [00:00:30] this is what you’re going to do. Yeah, a lot of people will tell you it’s a bad idea.

Rhona/Talitha: Honestly, my I [00:00:35] will never forget my auntie. I love her dearly, but she looked at me in pity, like she looked at me like she was going [00:00:40] to burst into tears. And she was like, you’re leaving this corporate role. You know you’re doing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And some people will live their own fear [00:00:45] out in you.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s really interesting that if loads of people tell [00:00:50] you it’s a good idea, it’s not a good idea. So true. Yeah. Because the reason is if it’s such [00:00:55] an obviously good idea, then there’ll be many competitors that be loads of people doing [00:01:00] it. If everyone’s telling you it’s not a good idea, it may not be, but [00:01:05] it may be. Yeah. And it’s that, it’s that that when you say does [00:01:10] someone have entrepreneurial spirit in them, it’s that question when people are telling you it’s not going to work, [00:01:15] and yet you still have this voice in your head, go.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:25] is mind movers. Moving [00:01:30] the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. [00:01:35] Your hosts Rhona Eskander and Payman [00:01:40] Langroudi.

Rhona/Talitha: Welcome to another episode of Mind Movers, [00:01:45] the mental health podcast in dentistry, where today we’re speaking with Talitha mackey, the creator [00:01:50] force and successful business owner of Fox and Vamp. I had the pleasure [00:01:55] of meeting Talitha on another podcast and was blown away by her story and journey. [00:02:00] She is an incredible woman who has been balancing motherhood, [00:02:05] mental health and offers valuable insights and inspiration. So join us as we delve [00:02:10] into her story. Welcome to Leesa. Thank you. So lively, so [00:02:15] weird to hear. Talitha mackey. I mean, that is my name. It’s my married name, but every [00:02:20] day I never use it. Oh my god. But it’s nice to hear my husband [00:02:25] will be delighted. What’s the, um. The price like? I managed to leave. The price is everything [00:02:30] on everything on print. Even when I send it off, I’m always leave the price. And he’s like, why? But you know what? We [00:02:35] had this whole debate. We’re not going to get into this debate now. But I did a podcast with my really good friend Shivani, and [00:02:40] we did the whole podcast about would you change your surname? Yeah. And I think it was it was a really [00:02:45] controversial conversation and obviously all the like Andrew Tate lovers came for us and were like, these women are going [00:02:50] to be single forever and like, no one’s going to marry them. But I think there was something about the identity [00:02:55] of your maiden name with your business because I’m Doctor Iskander, my dad’s Doctor Iskander, because he’s [00:03:00] a doctor.

Rhona/Talitha: Um, and I am, I feel like Doctor Iskander. It’s just [00:03:05] like it just goes to, you know, and I quite enjoy that. So, like, Talitha Price might [00:03:10] be like. It just feels. It feels I can’t I feel my husband’s going to listen to this. It [00:03:15] feels better. But equally my children’s surnames are murky. Yeah. So I love machi. Machi is a very cool [00:03:20] okay smell of it. This is the first bit though. So Talitha, I want to ask [00:03:25] you about the creation of Fox and Vamp. Okay. So we, you know, it’s [00:03:30] always so inspiring to have a business woman here. And I want you to tell us a little bit about Fox [00:03:35] and what it is and how it started. Yeah. So I have always been [00:03:40] really passionate about her beauty makeup. And since [00:03:45] a very young age, I basically dropped out of college before I was thrown [00:03:50] out of college and had to go, had to go and get a job. And I remember my mum [00:03:55] being like, if you don’t get a job in one week, she’s like, you are going back to college. [00:04:00] It was the end of the summer. At this point. She was like, you are going back to college in September and you’re going to be down a year at that point. [00:04:05]

Rhona/Talitha: And I was like, oh my God. Frantically trying to find a job, I phoned up every single [00:04:10] salon, and at that point I was too old to be taken on because it’s government funded. [00:04:15] So you have to be of a certain age, um, to be taken on. I was already 17. You have [00:04:20] to be like 16 when you’re doing it. Anyway, I begged the salon. They asked me what my GCSEs were. [00:04:25] I actually got really good GCSEs. I just wasn’t focussed in college. It wasn’t what I wanted to do anyway. [00:04:30] They took a risk on me, so I started doing hairdressing. How old were you then? I was [00:04:35] 17. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I had to complete the course in two years where usually I take three and [00:04:40] a half to four, I disappear. So they had to fast track me through the course. Um, so really [00:04:45] enjoyed it. But I lived in a really small town and just had really itchy feet. [00:04:50] Um, so I actually ended I didn’t speak about this on the other podcast, [00:04:55] but I ended up working for Virgin Atlantic. Oh, wow. Yeah. Which was amazing. [00:05:00] And I did that again. I was actually one of the youngest to ever fly with Virgin Atlantic. Oh my [00:05:05] God, what is that of Richard Branson saying? I was one of the youngest people too. Wow. Um, [00:05:10] were you.

Payman Langroudi: An air stewardess? Yeah. What’s it like?

Rhona/Talitha: Wow, that’s so young. It’s [00:05:15] hard work. Yeah, I was young at the time. It was amazing. But I was literally driving from [00:05:20] Southport, where I’m from, which is up north.

Payman Langroudi: Tiny town. Liverpool.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah, past Liverpool. [00:05:25] And I was driving to Heathrow or Gatwick to fly, so [00:05:30] I would spend all my money driving just to do the flight to go away for a few days, [00:05:35] which was amazing. And so it just really wasn’t kind of sustainable. When I was on board, [00:05:40] though, I kind of fell in love with like, um, selling makeup products. And this person [00:05:45] who at the time, I didn’t know who it was, she handed me a card and she turned out to be one of [00:05:50] the head people in Estee Lauder. She was like a sales manager and like the highest sales manager in Estee Lauder. [00:05:55] And she’s like, if you ever want a job, let me know. So I ended up getting in touch with her, moved to London. [00:06:00] And this is, by the way, I didn’t just get in touch with her. This was like maybe a year later, moved [00:06:05] to London. Like I said, I’d always loved makeup beauty, I loved hair, but I [00:06:10] didn’t want to go back into it. At that point, I fell into working in makeup, started off in a makeup counter [00:06:15] a year and a half later, was an area manager. Yeah. Worked for LVMH, [00:06:20] worked for Estee Lauder Group, ran Selfridges, Beauty Hall and Oxford [00:06:25] Street. The whole two hall. Yeah, a 250 staff under me. Wow. How old [00:06:30] were you then? 21. 22. She’s young. Yeah, [00:06:35] amazing. I feel like a fast border. I feel like I’m speaking. But while I was [00:06:40] doing this. I’d had like a really unfortunate hair experience [00:06:45] and I found myself needing hair extensions. And listen, I’m a northern girl. Having hair extensions [00:06:50] is very normal.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah, I’m always pretty much had hair extensions. But anyway, my hair had been really compromised, [00:06:55] so I just couldn’t find anywhere good in London to get [00:07:00] them. And I was travelling back up north to Liverpool to get them. I was literally hopping on a flight to Marbella [00:07:05] to get my hair done. When my mum was leaving to go to the person she was using [00:07:10] who was amazing, and I was like, oh my God. I mean, I literally did this for a year and I was like, [00:07:15] why isn’t there somewhere in London where you can go with a really high quality hair extensions [00:07:20] that’s affordable? Of course, there are places, there’s a handful of places, but it was a bit unattainable [00:07:25] to me at the time because it was too expensive, or you’d have to compromise on quality. [00:07:30] And I was like, there’s a real gap in the market here. This should be good hair available [00:07:35] at a better price. So really, that’s kind of how the business [00:07:40] was formed. I trained on my days off to do hair extensions. Obviously, somewhere back in my [00:07:45] mind I did have the skill set technically being a hairdresser, so it’s not like you can just pick [00:07:50] it up where you left off. Obviously I had to train and retrain and really that’s how the brand was [00:07:55] started and that’s how that’s how it began. I left my corporate role. [00:08:00] I started doing it out of my flat. My husband, who now my husband, who was my boyfriend at the [00:08:05] time, said to me, if it doesn’t work out, you’ll have to get a job. I’ll give you three months. And [00:08:10] I was like, yeah, fine, I’ll get a job.

Rhona/Talitha: I’m a hustler. I’ll get a job. That’s fine. They did work out. So we [00:08:15] are. So I think, you know, one of the fascinating things is, is that people [00:08:20] I mean, actually I’m going to put it out there to both of you. Do you think that some people are [00:08:25] just born with entrepreneurial spirit and some people aren’t? Or do you think it’s something [00:08:30] that you can get into, as it were? You know, because what I’m hearing, you know, Talitha was kicked out [00:08:35] of school, clearly conventional school didn’t, you know, left school was almost kicked out. She didn’t [00:08:40] want to pursue that role, but still became incredibly successful and had that [00:08:45] drive from a young age. Do you think entrepreneurial spirit is something that you’re born with, or do [00:08:50] you think that you do? Yeah, I honestly have always my mum was like, I remember [00:08:55] I had a fascination with like designer handbags when I was young and my mum was like, well, [00:09:00] you know, they’re so expensive. And I was like, well, I’ll get a job. Yeah, I was 14 or 15 at the time. I had [00:09:05] three jobs. At 15, I would literally work in a designer clothes shop for a day. I would go to work [00:09:10] in a restaurant at midnight, and then I would go glass collect in a nightclub. I was 15 [00:09:15] and I bought my handbag. After two months, I saved up myself. So it’s just in me. Yeah, I am not [00:09:20] afraid of hard work anywhere. I’ll do any of the work. I wouldn’t ask anybody to do anything that I [00:09:25] would.

Payman Langroudi: Put the question to answer. The question is interesting, insomuch as like you were very successful at what you were [00:09:30] doing, you know, you were running the floor, 250 people working. You’re obviously very [00:09:35] good at sales. It’s clear, but entrepreneurial. You’re. Yeah, that’s true. [00:09:40] There’s an element of risk. Yeah. That some people really shy away from.

Rhona/Talitha: Correct. [00:09:45] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And there’s a loneliness to it as well that some people can’t handle and some [00:09:50] people are fine with. Yeah. There’s definitely a loneliness to it.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah. There is, there is, there is like [00:09:55] these communities now because we went to this parlour event a few weeks ago. Yeah. And at this [00:10:00] parlour event there were loads of like start up brands. And they said that like founder loneliness is like [00:10:05] a really big thing. Like if you’re a sole founder, it’s much lonelier than people having co-founders. [00:10:10] And there’s some people that fail at their first Start-Up and it’s only them they actually prefer. They’re like quite traumatised [00:10:15] at the loneliness aspect of it on every level.

Payman Langroudi: You know, we’ve all started a business. Yeah. [00:10:20] And it’s quite interesting that if you tell friends and family, I’ve got this idea yours [00:10:25] was a hair salon, was it? Yeah.

Rhona/Talitha: Well, yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or [00:10:30] you were going to do what you did. I remember you pitching it at me, telling me this is what you’re going to do. Yeah, [00:10:35] a lot of people will tell you it’s a bad idea.

Rhona/Talitha: Honestly, I will never forget my auntie. [00:10:40] I love her dearly. But she looked at me in pity, like she looked at me like she was going to burst into tears. And she was like, [00:10:45] you’re leaving this corporate role. You know you’re doing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And some people will live their own fear out in you.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah. [00:10:50]

Payman Langroudi: But it’s really interesting that if loads of people tell you it’s a good idea, [00:10:55] it’s not a good idea. So true. Yeah. Because the reason is if it’s such an obviously good idea, [00:11:00] then there’ll be many competitors to be loads of people doing it. If [00:11:05] everyone’s telling you it’s not a good idea, it may not be, but it may [00:11:10] be. Yeah. And it’s that, it’s that that when you say does someone have entrepreneurial spirit [00:11:15] in them is that question people are telling you it’s not going to work, and yet you still have [00:11:20] this voice in your head, go.

Rhona/Talitha: But I want to ask you, Talitha was your background. Did you grow up in a privileged background or [00:11:25] a like normal background, a working class background? What was your background working class? [00:11:30] I would say I did go to private school, but my mum like struggled to put us through private school. My dad [00:11:35] wasn’t very present, so yeah, I was. Did that drive you? I think [00:11:40] so I’ve done some. Therapy. And actually I was literally just thinking that. And I think that I’ve [00:11:45] done in a child work and all sorts. And I think that actually she came to the conclusion of [00:11:50] you are the way you are, and you’re so determined because no one else was going to look after it was up [00:11:55] to you. You felt very determined to be able to look after your mum, and [00:12:00] I would have never come to that conclusion on my own. It’s just how I am. Yeah, I’m happy [00:12:05] to work and I’m happy, but potentially that is because, [00:12:10] I mean, look, obviously Payman made some really good points because we talk about like being a nepo baby and [00:12:15] all that sort of thing. So sometimes when you come from a very privileged or very rich background, it’s sometimes even harder [00:12:20] to prove yourself because people just assume you are where you are because of who your parents are or like, and [00:12:25] sometimes that’s more difficult. I think definitely when I think about my own childhood, when we [00:12:30] first came back to the UK after my dad had left, like we did not have any money, and I remember my dad [00:12:35] taking us to Asda and I wasn’t allowed to buy like normal coke.

Rhona/Talitha: We had to buy Asda’s like [00:12:40] best or whatever. Yeah, and I remember my parents like your mum, she, [00:12:45] my mum was like, we have to put them in private school because the schools were so rough and education was always like the highest [00:12:50] pillar in life. So like again, my mum was like working two jobs. My dad was paid really [00:12:55] badly on the NHS at that time, and every single penny went to school that we didn’t take holidays, [00:13:00] we didn’t go out for meals, it just went on schools and then going to the school because we couldn’t [00:13:05] afford school uniform and had to buy it from the charity. I was bullied because mine had holes or whatever or whatever. [00:13:10] Yeah, and then I remember the children’s. I was always popular because I was always a sociable person, but the children’s [00:13:15] parents didn’t want their kids to hang out with me because my parents were never present. So they [00:13:20] thought I’d be a bad influence because they never picked me up or would never come to any of these clubs, and we couldn’t afford it. But [00:13:25] it was that as young as like six years old, that was like, I’m going to prove all these parents wrong, [00:13:30] like on a subconscious level, because I was so protective of the way that they thought so negatively of my [00:13:35] parents.

Rhona/Talitha: And I recognised the power of having like financial freedom was. So [00:13:40] I think that drove me to a certain extent. That’s amazing to think what you’ve achieved now. [00:13:45] Well, no thank you. But but I, I honestly I think what you’ve achieved is amazing. And back [00:13:50] to Paiman’s point though, you say like if someone says the ID is really good, [00:13:55] then it’s almost like it should deter you. But I’m going to put something out there. Here is [00:14:00] something that’s been around for a really long time, and how businesses haven’t thrived in [00:14:05] the way that it’s thrived with you. So why do you think, like, what do you think is [00:14:10] has made Fox and the success and tell us about like what happened during the pandemic as well? Because I know [00:14:15] that’s when you had the launch. Yeah. Of course. So we actually opened the Chelsea Salon in um, [00:14:20] uh, 20 19th December. Obviously we were shut in March of [00:14:25] 2020. So that was a really obviously difficult time. I’d [00:14:30] just opened the business up for it to just be closed, and obviously it was such a risk at the time. And I remember [00:14:35] like when I was given the rent at the time, like working it out per client, how many clients I’d have [00:14:40] to do by yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Would you have a co-founder?

Rhona/Talitha: No, just by myself. So I took this on by [00:14:45] myself and I’d taken only one employee on. At that point.

Payman Langroudi: I saved up loads of money [00:14:50] and put it all in. Yeah, actually. Fund it.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah. It’s just so lucky. I know a detour [00:14:55] now, but it is actually an interesting story. And actually I love this story because, um, it just shows [00:15:00] about being a good person. So I had when I was renting a space in Wandsworth Town, I had a client, [00:15:05] super nice client. However, when you’re just starting off and [00:15:10] you have appointments, you’ll know yourself and someone lets you down. It’s quite a big deal. Huge deal. Huge. You [00:15:15] take it so personal because that that appointment is everything to you. Yeah. And she had actually done it [00:15:20] to me a few times maybe like 2 or 3. So obviously you feel really defeated. [00:15:25] Anyway, she’d messaged me she wanted to come in. I was like, I’m just gonna of course I’m gonna, you know, [00:15:30] welcome her in. And I was just super, super nice to her as I would always be. And we were [00:15:35] just chatting. But I was a bit deflated in this appointment and she said, you just don’t see me like yourself. I said, well, I’ve started [00:15:40] looking for premises so expensive. I was like, I can’t believe it. Like, I just feel like [00:15:45] I’m never going to be able to get a salon. Like, how on earth do people take it on? They need X, Y and Z. And [00:15:50] anyway, she was quite and she was like, this is really strange, but my next [00:15:55] door neighbour has a salon in a house and the people are moving out to Notting Hill because they’ve expanded. She [00:16:00] was like, she’s actually changing it back into part of the house, but do you want me to speak to her? And I was like, [00:16:05] yes, we show me pictures, show me the images.

Rhona/Talitha: It’s amazing. So I met with her that [00:16:10] night, signed for it the next day. Amazing. Yeah. So there was no like big and obviously it [00:16:15] because it’s technically residential. It was done in a very different way. And I [00:16:20] think actually now, like I would never want a salon that was different to what the salon is now [00:16:25] because it’s within a townhouse. It’s, it’s it’s stunning. It makes it really special in [00:16:30] the same place, still in the same place. It’s on Sydney Street and Chelsea. So just around the corner from yourself. It’s [00:16:35] a beautiful space. And I think coming back to your original question of what [00:16:40] what makes it. You know what makes it? I don’t want to say thrive, but what makes it different [00:16:45] is really the experience. I’ve obviously, I’m I worked really hard building relationships [00:16:50] with clients and anybody that I brought into the business. I’ve waited, [00:16:55] even if it’s meant that I’ve taken more on myself or it’s been super stressful. I’ll only [00:17:00] bring on people who really align with my values just so that we can keep the business [00:17:05] at a certain level. We try to keep ahead of the curve [00:17:10] in terms of any different methods. I’m not like set in my ways that it has to be done [00:17:15] this way. I’ll very much pivot exactly what we were mentioning before the podcast, before I’ll pivot [00:17:20] when needed.

Rhona/Talitha: And I just think it’s about really being honest, having integrity. [00:17:25] We know we’ve got a we’re lucky that we [00:17:30] same as you, you know, we work with a lot of influencers, but we don’t hunt down the influencers. We never, ever [00:17:35] get in touch with them. Yes, exactly. These are people coming to us because they want the service. And, you know, that’s [00:17:40] because we’re providing a good service, which I think, again, says a lot. Yeah. Um, [00:17:45] what? So during lockdown then what happened? We [00:17:50] obviously could not open. I mean, like, did you panic? Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Absolutely. [00:17:55] Panicked. Um, panicked, was worried about money, [00:18:00] had to continue to pay the rent because I’d just taken it on. I was so scared of losing it. [00:18:05] So I had to pay the rent fully for around nine months, I think. [00:18:10] And then I was just like, I just can’t do this. And then we negotiated to bring it down to half. I didn’t [00:18:15] have any help, any government help because it was classed as residential. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So [00:18:20] that was really hard. Did you have lost stars by that point? No. So I didn’t have too many [00:18:25] staff. And the staff that I did have were self-employed. So that was probably better. But then equally you worry that you’re not going [00:18:30] to have those staff back. You feel guilty because you’re not able to look after them even though you want to. I wasn’t in a position [00:18:35] where I could, so yeah, there was a lot of panic. There was a lot of obviously crappy [00:18:40] days, like, of course, for everyone.

Rhona/Talitha: And the only thing I would [00:18:45] say, though, looking back on Covid is my business really [00:18:50] thrived after Covid. Yeah. How long were you guys allowed open for? Because that’s same with dentists. Like three [00:18:55] months after the announcement. Yeah, we were allowed to go back, so we were [00:19:00] allowed to go back much earlier. Yes. I also had just bought the clinic and I suddenly had all this staff and [00:19:05] everything. Yeah, I switched to doing like online consults and I pivoted and I was just quite, [00:19:10] you know, I really did my best to try and stay with us. I completely forgot that [00:19:15] actually. Yeah, yeah. So I would literally have to put my face on, like, obviously like in my pyjamas and exactly the same. [00:19:20] Yeah. I’d be doing online consultations, getting everyone booked up. We had waitlist upon waitlist. Same. Yeah. [00:19:25] We would go in at six in the morning. We wouldn’t leave till 11 at night like we were just round the clock. And it was [00:19:30] actually such a weird, great momentum. Everyone was just so happy to see us, so happy [00:19:35] to be there throwing money at you. Let’s be honest, because people had it. They had money in their pocket. Money? [00:19:40] Yeah, they were so happy to spend it. So I always think, I don’t know if my [00:19:45] business would be the same actually, because actually, you know, I try to look out the positive from it. So off [00:19:50] the back of it we did. Well, you know.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a massive similarity between dentistry [00:19:55] and hairdressing.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah that’s massive. But also a lot of our dentists are self-employed. [00:20:00]

Payman Langroudi: Well let’s let’s start with dentists I know hairdressers the very early days.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah. [00:20:05]

Payman Langroudi: The very before university started teaching dentistry, [00:20:10] it was just like.

Rhona/Talitha: What.

Payman Langroudi: Was the hairdressers that were doing the tea.

Rhona/Talitha: No [00:20:15] way.

Payman Langroudi: 100 years ago. Right.

Rhona/Talitha: I heard more than a hundred years ago and 50. My [00:20:20] goodness, clothes on. Electricity. We have the same skill set. But no. But then I [00:20:25] see.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a very similar in that if someone doesn’t turn up, you’ve lost money.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah, [00:20:30] it’s client facing, you’ve got intimate.

Payman Langroudi: Owner and you’ve got, we call them associates, but you would call them. [00:20:35]

Rhona/Talitha: Clients.

Payman Langroudi: Well no. The other.

Rhona/Talitha: Oh sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, hairdressers who work.

Rhona/Talitha: For [00:20:40] you, you know, of course, the stylist.

Payman Langroudi: The stylist, they’re on a percentage of what they. Yeah, it’s very similar.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah. [00:20:45] What it is. Yeah. What I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Interested in is, as a new business.

Rhona/Talitha: Medieval Europe. [00:20:50] I’m just putting out there medieval Europe, 1745. This is not 100 years [00:20:55] ago.

Payman Langroudi: 150.

Rhona/Talitha: 250. But [00:21:00] but.

Payman Langroudi: But then. But then as a new business. Yes. And let’s face it, Sydney Street. Yes. [00:21:05] That’s not a cheap place to rent, right where you’ve got. I know you had a few [00:21:10] clients from, from your Wandsworth days, but where you’ve got essentially empty seats. What [00:21:15] did you do marketing wise to get patients in, get patients to get [00:21:20] clients in.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah. No. Well but you know I yeah it’s [00:21:25] interesting. Listen there’s always going to be ups and downs. Sometimes we’re super busy. Sometimes obviously it’s quieter. I [00:21:30] don’t really sweat the quiet times now because I understand the business enough to know that [00:21:35] we will go through the motions. At the time, of course, I sweated it more. What I would do [00:21:40] is we’re very present. On social media. I think that it’s really easy [00:21:45] to show the results that instant. So it’s very easy to show visual, very [00:21:50] visual. So I think having our clients are a really good asset and they’re obviously willing [00:21:55] to be on the Instagram. We’ve always utilised that really well. We do quite a lot of Q and A’s that [00:22:00] we get so many consultations on the back of, and honestly, [00:22:05] word of mouth. I’ve never really worked with marketing at all or PR [00:22:10] and yeah, I’ve just literally relied on word of mouth, [00:22:15] relied on doing a good job. And of course, were you very strong on.

Payman Langroudi: Social media before you [00:22:20] even started?

Rhona/Talitha: No. Literally absolutely shocking. And I also know did you start when what [00:22:25] year? 2008, 2019. So yeah. So the beginning of so the most.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:22:30] didn’t have thousands or hundreds of thousands of followers.

Rhona/Talitha: No. Still don’t sadly. But you [00:22:35] can a pretty decent following. Yeah. No we have we have we have a nice following and we have an engaged following as well. [00:22:40] But, um, you know, I’ve worked with different influencers. I mentioned on the other podcast that, um, Sophie [00:22:45] Milner’s one. Sophie Milner is one of them. Laura Will’s fashion book blog. I speak about her on every podcast [00:22:50] because she really was a pivotal mindset. She’s my Melissa’s wardrobe. Yeah. Go on. Yeah [00:22:55] she is. She was a pivotal moment within the business. She is somebody that [00:23:00] doesn’t look like your typical extension client. And I think there’s obviously, [00:23:05] you know, the people’s thoughts behind extensions aren’t necessarily true. [00:23:10] Like maybe mine doesn’t look like extensions, but it is it’s full head of extensions, you know, and that’s maybe not where their head goes. [00:23:15] And in Laura Wales is a very Chelsea mum, very natural looking [00:23:20] and her style is incredible. And I think [00:23:25] she really drove the women in, in the area into the salon. And I [00:23:30] always say to her, I wouldn’t have been. I actually always say I don’t think I’d have been able to keep the salon if it wasn’t for you initially. [00:23:35] And but, you know, she’s still a client today, and I think that says so much that she’s been with me from [00:23:40] the beginning and she’s like, I can never she actually always says, I can never take my hair out.

Rhona/Talitha: It’s my superpower. [00:23:45] Yeah. And I’m like, that’s amazing. The fact that she’s still coming speaks volumes. You know, we don’t [00:23:50] always post it. We don’t. You know, it’s not the same. It’s the same age. Melissa. She’s a paying client now. Like I [00:23:55] would never take it. But she insists, you know. And like she’s just loves her hair. And yeah, I [00:24:00] think that your hair is like. I mean, so your hair. Yeah. [00:24:05] Like, I know you can’t relate. So that’s like my hair. You know, my [00:24:10] hair is something like, I’m lucky because I’ve always had, you know, Middle Eastern [00:24:15] hair essentially. But last year I was going through quite a lot, and I lost a lot of hair. And then [00:24:20] I went to a trichologist and a doctor and they basically were like, look, you’ve got signs of androgenic [00:24:25] alopecia, um, because of all the stress. And I just felt like I wasn’t myself. So people [00:24:30] underestimate and hair is one of those things that it does reflect your state of mind. Yeah, 100%. [00:24:35] So I think, you know, that’s really, really important. Um, influencer marketing is always something [00:24:40] that I talk about and the power of that, and if you’ve got the right influencers and I think the formula that people get wrong, I see [00:24:45] it in dentistry as well, is that people bombard a load of influencers and they expect [00:24:50] stuff, or they start putting these KPIs on them, and it doesn’t work like that because they’re also human beings. [00:24:55]

Rhona/Talitha: And you’ve got to understand that when they want to post something, they it is their job [00:25:00] and they want to be like credible and authentic, because that’s the whole reason the audience aren’t going to believe [00:25:05] you if you’re paying to promote a service essentially 100%. And listen, it [00:25:10] doesn’t, I think you’ll agree it doesn’t really have the same hit these days. Yeah. It doesn’t. You know, [00:25:15] it’s great if you get a great influencer that really makes a difference. But I don’t [00:25:20] see it impacting the business. Maybe because we’ve grown or maybe because it just people [00:25:25] just don’t buy into it as much. But I think working with really well aligned [00:25:30] influencers is the right thing to do. Somebody asked me the other day, would you stop working with them? [00:25:35] And I was like, no, I think it’s actually more damaging for them to go somewhere else, you know, get their hair done, [00:25:40] happy to have them, you know, the right people in the salon. But like I say, we don’t really reach out there. [00:25:45] Of course, there’s like people on my wish list. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Manifest. [00:25:50] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So are you then turned it from a service business to a product [00:25:55] business.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: That was a big step, right?

Rhona/Talitha: It was a big step. Yeah. It [00:26:00] still.

Payman Langroudi: Made you do that.

Rhona/Talitha: Because. But also for those that don’t know. So yeah. Telethon [00:26:05] now sells. Yeah. Go through go through that. So we have a product [00:26:10] line now. So we sell the hair. So we sell it in clippings. We sell it in taping [00:26:15] method and we sell it in the keratin bonds. I’m also wholesaling the methods as well so we can [00:26:20] wholesale into other salons. We’re actually starting in Dubai at the moment. Um, [00:26:25] and the reason it was created is purely because every supplier [00:26:30] I was working with just wasn’t quite right. So I [00:26:35] started looking for the hair literally in 2019. I have only just got the hair, by the way, to [00:26:40] the point. Where it’s ready to wholesale. It’s taken years. It’s taken thousands of pounds. [00:26:45] It’s taken lots of breakdowns, loads of tears, loads of giving up. Don’t want to do it. Absolutely [00:26:50] hate it. To get to this point now. And I still feel like we’ve got a long way to go. You know [00:26:55] a lot. But the product side I’m really excited about because obviously that’s how you can start to scale your business. [00:27:00] And again, I’m just always it was never going to be I will never stand still. [00:27:05] I just think that’s the way I am. It’s probably my best quality in business, my [00:27:10] worst quality in home life, because nothing is ever quite enough. [00:27:15] Like I’m always looking for the next thing. But yeah, that’s that’s basically it’s here [00:27:20] that you sell. So sorry. Yes, it’s fair that we sell. We have hairbrushes as well. We have scrunchies, the accessories side, [00:27:25] and we are launching three products next year as well.

Rhona/Talitha: Why did you decide [00:27:30] to transition into that space? What motivated you to transition just because [00:27:35] she never made sense. Yeah. And also it made sense I couldn’t have [00:27:40] I couldn’t get it off a supplier. So I had to create it ourselves. So we created the different hair lines ourselves. [00:27:45] Like the hair I know, I know, it’s I’m talking about hair extensions. Not everybody gets it, but [00:27:50] in every shade of hair extensions it’s like six different colours going through. That’s what makes it look [00:27:55] super natural. Whereas like if it’s not as dimensional, it doesn’t look as natural. And obviously [00:28:00] our whole thing is that it looks really, really natural in your hair. And also, I actually had a fall out with one [00:28:05] of the suppliers when I spoke about this, and she actually I was, you know, we were spending a lot [00:28:10] of money with her, and she dropped me due to somebody coming to work for me that used to work for [00:28:15] her, and that was probably the best thing that happened. I feel like it was the universe. [00:28:20] Obviously at the time it left me in a really difficult, yeah, difficult situation [00:28:25] because our main hair supplier cut us off. Um, but it really forced [00:28:30] me into taking the leap that I needed into putting the money down. [00:28:35] It’s expensive to create your own hair line, right? You can’t just order hair by [00:28:40] the pack. You have to order in the kilogram like kilograms of hair.

Payman Langroudi: And are you selling direct to [00:28:45] consumers as well as to salons?

Rhona/Talitha: So we sell online as well. So that book just for [00:28:50] clippings and tapes. So these are things that they can take to the hairdresser or do themselves at home. [00:28:55] Because I’m aware that not everyone can get to Chelsea. Right. Not everyone can come to Chelsea.

Payman Langroudi: Different skill. [00:29:00] Right?

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, what are you doing to address that? Are you. So you’re now getting good at ecom [00:29:05] and. Yeah.

Rhona/Talitha: Or did you get a team? I got a team to do the website. I [00:29:10] am really trying my hardest to get my head around it, but I enjoy [00:29:15] Shopify because I like Shopify is pretty easy, right. And if you’ve used it, it’s [00:29:20] yeah, it’s pretty basic. So I can I can wrap my head around that. I’m still terrible [00:29:25] on e-commerce and all these kind of things. I need to get better. Yeah. But, um, yeah, it’s a different side of [00:29:30] the business. And again, it’s all pretty new. The products have only just launched within the past like two, two and a half [00:29:35] months. So yeah. Yeah. Right at the beginning. Yeah. We’ve had the products to sell directly [00:29:40] to our clients in salon for over a year, but I didn’t want to take them online [00:29:45] until we, you know, one.

Payman Langroudi: Big difference between products and services, yeah, [00:29:50] is that services can be profitable immediately. Products very rare that [00:29:55] they’re profitable in the first place.

Rhona/Talitha: He used to be a dentist. He gave up dentistry and he did you what? Whitening [00:30:00] systems like whitening. I would love to use your whitening. I don’t use any. I haven’t whiten my teeth in about two years. [00:30:05] Enlighten is the one to Payman Owens enlighten. Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but but but [00:30:10] my point is that with products. Yeah. If you’re not profitable for [00:30:15] three four years, really? That’s normal.

Rhona/Talitha: Well I was I’ve always had services.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:30:20] very unlikely. And for services you.

Rhona/Talitha: Tend to be.

Payman Langroudi: Profitable in the first year you know. [00:30:25]

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah I had this image because I’m obviously very naive in this [00:30:30] world that I would, you know, launch them online and ding dong. Yeah yeah [00:30:35] yeah yeah. So I was like, wait a minute. Yeah. What do you mean sorry? Why are they just sat online [00:30:40] like we’ve done a few posts. What’s happening here. Let me just start to get some traction. Actually [00:30:45] the last week was brilliant. We’ve just got loads of traction from American. I just don’t know why nothing was [00:30:50] said. Nothing was done that I can see on social. And yet most of our clients that are buying [00:30:55] online are literally 70% is from the US.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, crazy.

Rhona/Talitha: It’s [00:31:00] really, really interesting. I want to ask you though. What is [00:31:05] your home life situation? Yes, because this is one of the most [00:31:10] important things for me to understand. Like, obviously I see a strong, empowered boss woman [00:31:15] here in front of me and you know, you, from what I understand, were working day [00:31:20] and night. So when you first met your partner, was that challenging on the relationship? [00:31:25] Was it also difficult for you to like ease into a space where [00:31:30] you, you know, are trusting somebody or giving to a relationship, you know, how [00:31:35] did you navigate through that? So when I met my partner, I was still working in Selfridges. [00:31:40] So it was a different, different kind of job. I’m lucky that he’s really [00:31:45] supportive. He’s obviously now my husband. Um, and he also is works hard, [00:31:50] right? He’s not always he’s he’s busy as well, which helps. When [00:31:55] I left to start up the business, I think the biggest thing, rather than me being [00:32:00] so busy day and night, the biggest thing that you had the problem of is probably just the constant meltdowns [00:32:05] that you had to support me through. And like, I mean, making the right decision. What am I doing? [00:32:10] And I think, you know, he has definitely I’ve never said this to him, my God. So when he listens to [00:32:15] this podcast, I’m sure you listen to his podcast. Like, I probably couldn’t have done it without him. Like [00:32:20] he was such a support. No, but I think it’s really important that you have [00:32:25] some kind of support. You have that right. And he was just a stable person that I could [00:32:30] just have those meltdowns to constantly. But ideas off before [00:32:35] that, did you find that you weren’t having those sorts of interactions and relationships for [00:32:40] sure. Yeah, yeah. And also, yeah, just a completely different relationship I [00:32:45] can’t are you married him?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah, exactly. That’s why I’m married though. So like, I know it sounds weird, but I [00:32:50] also can’t really remember not being with him. We’ve been together almost ten years. Yeah, well it’s quite. We’ve been together almost a decade. [00:32:55] It’s been quite a while. Obviously been with a few shockers before him. [00:33:00] We’ll have to go through them. We all have to. Yeah. And I can’t imagine being with them. And I tried to set up my business. I probably, maybe [00:33:05] wouldn’t have even tried to sell my business, because maybe they were putting me in a place where I wouldn’t have felt confident. Yeah. [00:33:10] You know. Yeah. Whereas he’s always treated me so well or he’s believed in me. And I think that’s a really important thing. [00:33:15] My mum as well, my mum is such a solid and she’s amazing. And I always say [00:33:20] when I obviously I don’t have a relationship with my dad and I always said I, I’m sure [00:33:25] obviously I’m affected by it, but I never feel like I am because she’s such a solid. Yeah, she’s such a [00:33:30] she feels like both. Yeah. I don’t feel like I’m missing anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: My hair. But what about the juggle [00:33:35] with kids. Yes.

Rhona/Talitha: Well we’re going to get on to that. So. So the relationship was solid from the start. [00:33:40] Yeah. You felt that he could support your visions and your dreams which is great. And [00:33:45] the breakdowns can totally relate to that sort of relationship. But yeah. [00:33:50] How did you ease into motherhood? Let’s talk about that, because I feel like people don’t [00:33:55] really talk about that side of things. I my. I got pregnant with my [00:34:00] first son, Jagger. He’s three now. So we had him we got pregnant with him in lockdown. So [00:34:05] lockdown babies, lockdown babies. Everyone loved having a baby like that, which [00:34:10] I now look back on again. And I know obviously so many people had a terrible time, so I obviously [00:34:15] wanted careful what I say, but for me with the lockdown, because obviously I had Jagger and [00:34:20] it was a time that I was at home. Everyone was kind of at home. It was actually probably [00:34:25] the perfect time to have. Yeah, I know that. I don’t want to speak out of turn, but it was perfect for [00:34:30] us because. I didn’t have the pressure of work. Of course, I had the pressure of [00:34:35] not being open, but I didn’t have the pressure of work, which I just had with my daughter. So it was almost like your maternity [00:34:40] leave, basically. Yeah, exactly. And and actually, so we reopened. [00:34:45] Jagger was born in January. We reopened in the April 21st. [00:34:50]

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah, it must have been. Right. So we fully reopened in April 21st. And I was back then, so [00:34:55] I’d had January, February, March, I’d had like that time off with him where I didn’t have to feel guilty. [00:35:00] For me. It’s a guilt thing, right? I didn’t have to feel guilty about not being in the business or not being [00:35:05] present in the business. I could just enjoy my baby. Whereas it was a very different scenario with my daughter. [00:35:10] Now, Sloane, who’s eight months old, we were literally doing [00:35:15] photo shoots when I was nine months for the products. Wow. We were like staffed down. [00:35:20] I was interviewing like a maniac, like out here about to pop, afraid my water [00:35:25] break at any point. We were in negotiations with Dubai about all sorts. Things like [00:35:30] deals were dropping. It was a very stressful time, and we’re in the process [00:35:35] of creating some products that we have to constantly be speaking to different factories about. And I [00:35:40] remember being on a call, a zoom call two days after Sloane was born, and I was late to [00:35:45] the zoom, and I was like, I’m so sorry, I’ve just had a baby. And they were like, okay, but you know, we need an answer. And [00:35:50] I was like, wow. Um, yeah. They didn’t care. Like, we talk about [00:35:55] this sort of stuff all the time, though, that like, there was a we had a female dentist as well that was [00:36:00] freaking out because they wanted to do, I think, um, caesarean.

Rhona/Talitha: And she [00:36:05] said, I have to be back at work like in two weeks, like, no, it’s not an option. And even though I like [00:36:10] dental chairs are like designed and things like this, like, you know, there are still, I think, so much [00:36:15] to understand about what women need, you know, during this time. So [00:36:20] it’s really difficult. It’s really listen, I struggle with this juggle with two children [00:36:25] for sure. I find it really hard. Also, Sloane is at an age where technically it [00:36:30] would be very normal for me not to be working at this point. She’s. Yeah. So people do take years off. I mean, I [00:36:35] couldn’t, you know, of course they take a year off and they’re perfectly entitled [00:36:40] to do so. But I barely had any time off since she’s been born. And then [00:36:45] the guilt of not being with her is bad. But the, the guilt when I’m [00:36:50] with my business that it needs, you know, I need to be with the business. I have to focus on the business. I [00:36:55] have the guilt of not being with the children. When I’m with the children, I have the guilt about what’s going on in the business, [00:37:00] and I. I feel that all the time. It’s really what gives. What [00:37:05] gives? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The relationship. Right?

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s not going to be the kid [00:37:10] of the business.

Rhona/Talitha: The only thing I have with it. Well honestly at times, sometimes I think is it worth [00:37:15] it? But you know, it is. The baby was my first baby was my business. Yeah, I believe [00:37:20] in it. I believe in what I’m trying to create here. And [00:37:25] that’s ultimately what will keep me going. Yeah. And I also just try and be really [00:37:30] present with the kids when I am with them.

Payman Langroudi: When you are with them. Yeah.

Rhona/Talitha: A [00:37:35] really important I put my phone away. Good. And literally I’ll do that and [00:37:40] I’ll put it on the other side of the room because I’m too distracted. My phone doesn’t stop. You’ll know yourself, your phone doesn’t stop. Right. And there’s always something. [00:37:45] There is always something. So I’ll just put it away. So when I’m with them, [00:37:50] I’m with them. And also I of course have helped. She’s eight months old, right? But I [00:37:55] don’t. I spend at least an hour and a half with her in the morning and then set on my day. So [00:38:00] I’ve spent that with her, dropped him off at nursery and then on to work. I go and [00:38:05] it’s not for everyone. Definitely not for everyone. It’s hard. [00:38:10] But also, I feel like society kind of puts you in a box sometimes of like, you’re this [00:38:15] mum and you’re this amazing mum that’s at home with your children. You want to be, you know, you’re [00:38:20] just with your children. You’re the best mom ever because you’re always present or you’re working, [00:38:25] right. You’re one or the other. And it’s like, actually, you can be both. Like, I [00:38:30] really enjoy my children, I enjoy motherhood, but I also really like to work [00:38:35] and like to do all things. I think one of the scariest thing that’s happening online, particularly, is [00:38:40] that we’re having extremist views, like things have become so polarising. Recently [00:38:45] I posted about that NFL player Hunter. Did you see that whole [00:38:50] controversy? Here’s this NFL player and he went to a school [00:38:55] graduation, a female school graduation. And he was like, I want to congratulate you on your like whatever. [00:39:00] And he’s like one of the biggest lies that you’ve ever been told is [00:39:05] that, like, motherhood is actually the most important thing that you’ll ever do. Pretty much. Okay. [00:39:10] And that’s the kind of the lines. He’s super Christian. So like there was definitely this, um, sense of him, [00:39:15] you know, like talking about Christianity and that rhetoric. However, [00:39:20] obviously it riled up a lot of women because essentially.

Payman Langroudi: What was his point?

Rhona/Talitha: He [00:39:25] was he was basically like motherhood and having kids is way more important. And the biggest lie that you’re ever told is that, like [00:39:30] education and being successful is. Oh, so he was actually sticking up for mum? [00:39:35] Yes. Correct. And I just feel like again, we’re having this polarised. And it was really interesting because I was like, what [00:39:40] do you guys think? I talked about it on my social media. And a couple of dentists actually [00:39:45] had also said to me, like, I think that he’s really valid. Me and my partner have talked [00:39:50] about it, and I actually think that, you know, you can’t do it all. Like someone has to be the caretaker [00:39:55] of the children and someone has to be the provider. Now like that, that’s [00:40:00] fine. I understand, and a lot of women in the comments obviously were riled up. They were like, what? So you expect me not [00:40:05] to have an education and like, wait for a prince to just turn up on my door? And then I obviously made [00:40:10] the point that was, you know, imagine if you are in an abusive relationship and you don’t have any qualifications or education. [00:40:15] You can’t get out of the situation because you’ve not got this. Anyways, my point is, is that [00:40:20] again, like everything on social media, everything has become so polarised. It’s [00:40:25] either you’re the perfect mum and you’re at home, or you’re the boss woman. And it’s like there’s these like polarised [00:40:30] categories.

Payman Langroudi: Social media to one side. Yeah, right.

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Starting and running [00:40:35] and making a business successful. Yeah. Is a massive sacrifice. Yeah, [00:40:40] yeah. Whoever you are. Yeah. You could be a mum. As a mum, it’s even harder because [00:40:45] you’ve got that massive guilt thing. But yeah, let’s say you’re not a mum. Let’s say you’re not even a dad. [00:40:50] Let’s say you’re just a single guy. Yeah. You won’t, you will not see your family as much as. Yeah, you’re [00:40:55] going to miss birthdays. You know, it’s it’s that kind of. It’s like being in the army or something. Yeah. [00:41:00] It has its upside, but it has its downside. Yeah. And we’ve got to, we’ve got to just be open with [00:41:05] that. Yeah. That your kids will miss out on you a little bit. They will. [00:41:10] It’s going to.

Rhona/Talitha: Give their you know.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And they’ll learn. Yeah. If I watch my mum create [00:41:15] an empire. Yeah. Like if you put one of these salons in every capital city [00:41:20] or something. Yeah, well I’ve learnt massive things just by being around you.

Rhona/Talitha: This is what my husband says [00:41:25] to me. Yeah. He literally says the same. He’s like, one day they’re going to look at you and be like, wow, look at my mum’s. [00:41:30] Done. Um, so let’s hope. How did your.

Payman Langroudi: Mum was your mum working when you were growing up? [00:41:35]

Rhona/Talitha: She was working, but she’s not entrepreneurial, like, um, I that’s not even a main thing. She [00:41:40] isn’t. You know, she just worked hard. She worked hard to put us through education. So. Yeah. [00:41:45] Really different. The one thing I will say as well about having kids is obviously I started my business pre-kids, [00:41:50] so probably took a lot more risks because there was a lot less to risk. There [00:41:55] was a lot less risk to have. Whereas now things obviously, you [00:42:00] know, I have to try and make things work and make sensible decisions because we have a family. [00:42:05] I think that’s what a lot of people struggle with. Right? Like, you know, you hear people and often [00:42:10] I go back to the deathbed situation and, you know, they they did. A [00:42:15] nurse talked about how people had their deathbed regrets about their life. And I think [00:42:20] one of the most difficult thing is like, if you’re somebody, for example, that worked in finance or a corporate job and then it [00:42:25] you ever wanted to try something, but you’ve got family to look after. Like it’s so difficult, [00:42:30] like to kind of be like, right, I’m sucking off my 100 K salary to try something, and I [00:42:35] have no idea if it’s going to work. It’s a really difficult thing, and I think the younger you take [00:42:40] the risks or miss, the better, dare I say for sure, I think so, right? And I think [00:42:45] that anyone it takes balls right, to be able to do that, whoever you are, whatever age you are. But [00:42:50] if it pays off, it pays off.

Rhona/Talitha: And I just think there’s nothing better than something working [00:42:55] out when you put the work into it. Honestly, anything that’s been successful in my life and I know [00:43:00] that we’ve worked so hard for, it’s so much more enjoyable. Yeah. Like, it’s back to your [00:43:05] point as well. If you were given something, it’s you’re never going to look at it the same, are you. So [00:43:10] you’ve earned it. Yeah. I do think pain is necessary sometimes. And pain [00:43:15] discomfort is the thing that really gets you into growth. You know, someone [00:43:20] once said to me, A comfortable or okay situation [00:43:25] is much worse than a really difficult situation, because if it’s easy for [00:43:30] you to just be in that situation where it’s just, okay, it’s not awful, it’s not amazing, yeah, you’re going to stick at it. Whereas [00:43:35] if you have something that causes you incredible pain, it forces you to grow. And I think it is really [00:43:40] important, you know, in some way I don’t wish pain upon my [00:43:45] life. But now I understand that it’s a part of the necessary journey to get me [00:43:50] to where I need to be regardless. Driver. Exactly, exactly. So speaking [00:43:55] of which, though, what was your lowest point in [00:44:00] the last ten years? Um, [00:44:05] that you felt that you were struggling. I think [00:44:10] when I moved initially, when I moved to London, I was doing the corporate role. I felt very [00:44:15] like I was on a hamster wheel. I felt like I was, you know, I had all these teams. [00:44:20] I was under immense pressure. I mean, I’m under pressure now, but the pressure that I was, it’s intensified. [00:44:25]

Rhona/Talitha: They call Selfridges the Beast and he would like. It’s a known thing. You’re working really [00:44:30] long hours and you’re under incredible pressure for, let’s face it, not much money. Yeah. [00:44:35] And I was head to toe in psoriasis at the time. Wow. Literally from stress [00:44:40] head? Yeah. From stress. I still suffer with it now, but very like. It’s like it’s [00:44:45] under I manage it. I just felt like I had no social life because I was just [00:44:50] always exhausted. But I was this young girl trying to work all the time. When [00:44:55] I went out, I was meeting the wrong people, drinking too much when I went out, probably because I was [00:45:00] just trying to mask the fact that I just wasn’t happy. But equally, I’d moved to London. I’d left a relationship [00:45:05] that nobody could understand why I left as I went back up north, up north, I suppose. The guy for a long time, [00:45:10] his family were very successful. He was very successful. He’d have married me. If I’d have done that, [00:45:15] I would have had a very nice life, till to this day would have had a very nice life. It just wasn’t enough. And [00:45:20] I just knew I had this point to prove. I couldn’t go home. And [00:45:25] I was just really unhappy and felt really lonely and moved to London with [00:45:30] one of my closest friends, and she met somebody and got pregnant within six months. So then I [00:45:35] had to change a lot of my friends now, really. And then I always had to live with somebody that I didn’t know.

Rhona/Talitha: So again, I was [00:45:40] just lonely. And then I actually, like we said about the therapist, I started speaking to this therapist and [00:45:45] did a lot of inner child work. Then within six months I met my husband. Oh wow. But I think you have to do that work [00:45:50] first. Yeah. So do you feel because you had those pain points quite early on that now when [00:45:55] you have challenges, it rarely affects your mental health, if that makes sense. Because you understand [00:46:00] the triggers. Yeah. So you can like even if you’ve got something at work [00:46:05] that triggers you or something with your kids like you, you understand how to manage it. Now [00:46:10] because so many years ago you had understood. Yeah, all [00:46:15] those different things. Listen, I’ll still go through times I like I said, I, I have [00:46:20] found it after having Sloan like not so much with my son, but after my daughter, [00:46:25] I even found social media really intense. Like being on there. Because [00:46:30] I always say one of my favourite sayings is comparison is the thief of joy. But you can’t help [00:46:35] it. Especially like when you feel like you almost have an out-of-body experience. When you have a child, [00:46:40] you don’t really recognise yourself because you don’t look like yourself. It looks [00:46:45] on social media like everybody is doing so incredibly well. Yeah, yeah, you feel [00:46:50] like you’re not. Listen, if ten of people looked at my social media, it looks like I’ve had this amazing baby. [00:46:55] You know, she’s beautiful. I’m running a business. No one knows what’s going on behind social media.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:47:00] is there a loss of identity in becoming a mother? Must be right. There must be [00:47:05] an element of that.

Rhona/Talitha: I just, I just yeah, I [00:47:10] would say that I did struggle with, like I said, with the social side of things and the comparison [00:47:15] side of things, but. Equally. I do always try and bring myself back to [00:47:20] one. I’m very lucky to have healthy children and amazing children. And yeah, the identity thing. I [00:47:25] would just say that you become a little bit more. For me personally. I’m not saying you have to be a [00:47:30] mother to be empathetic at all, but like for me, I just found myself being a lot more empathetic, a lot [00:47:35] more patient because you have to be with children, which I had zero patience before. [00:47:40] I mean, my patience isn’t great now, but it’s better.

Payman Langroudi: I think. I agree with you, it makes you a better person, [00:47:45] but I think it’s.

Rhona/Talitha: Unfair to say, yeah, I think it’s fair to say because, listen, not everyone’s [00:47:50] going to have kids. It doesn’t make you a bad person, but it makes you for me. It’s taught [00:47:55] me those things. I’m more empathetic. And also I don’t sweat the small stuff as much because [00:48:00] of the children. Yeah, I think so. I think, you know, at the end [00:48:05] of the day, everybody’s experiences are different. And like you said, some people may [00:48:10] choose, may not choose. I think the nuanced way of thinking is [00:48:15] so, so important in the world that we live in today. And I think it’s recognising that [00:48:20] mothers will have struggles. And if you do want to be a stay at home mom, you be a stay at home mom, right? If [00:48:25] you want to be a boss girl that doesn’t want to have children, that’s your choice too. If you want to do a bit of both, [00:48:30] which I’m hearing that you do, and I’d like to do eventually, that’s cool too. [00:48:35] I think what we’ve got to recognise is, is that it’s not one fits all. Yeah. And [00:48:40] I get it. Like women are biologically programmed to have children, [00:48:45] as it were. But not all women can have children either. Exactly. You know, whether or not they’ve been gifted that. So [00:48:50] I think it’s it’s really, really important. And the social media thing, [00:48:55] I think the whole like sort of mummy influencers or all of the stuff around [00:49:00] motherhood, I think it’s difficult, even me, who’s not a mother yet.

Rhona/Talitha: I look at [00:49:05] that stuff and like you say, I’m like, how are they doing it all? And there’s so much on there that I think can be quite overwhelming [00:49:10] if people don’t show the real behind the scenes, because there are behind the scenes of everything. Of course, [00:49:15] it’s a struggle. It is a struggle for most mum, most mums, of [00:49:20] course, people just take to it. But I am a really good mum. I am like, I can’t say [00:49:25] that because I am but I struggle of course and sometimes, you know, like when everything’s [00:49:30] going on with the business, one of the kids is sick and you know you’re torn and it is just constant, [00:49:35] but you’ve just got to ride that wave. They’re not always going to be this little. Yeah. So I just have to try and enjoy it, do [00:49:40] the best I can and that’s all I can see really. So tell me a little [00:49:45] bit about the Princess Trust and your involvement with them. So we recently [00:49:50] did an event with them, which was amazing. And with my client now friend Stacey Gololo, [00:49:55] who has Galileo Italia, which is an amazing brand. And she actually came to me with the Princess [00:50:00] Trust as a charity to support women supporting International Women’s Day. But they have [00:50:05] an amazing program and Women supporting women, where they actually [00:50:10] empower young girls from all kinds of different backgrounds, [00:50:15] underprivileged backgrounds, if you like.

Rhona/Talitha: And they help put them into job [00:50:20] roles, they help educate. They do all sorts. So yeah, I’ve just [00:50:25] started working with them now and we are going to be taking on somebody to help within the salon. [00:50:30] And again, it’s just such a small thing for me to be able to do, but it’s so nice to be able to work [00:50:35] with such an incredible charity. I love that so much. But tell us about how they’ve been working with you [00:50:40] as well. Sending the girls. Yes. So the girls will come into the salon [00:50:45] and then you’re asking kind of like, what? What does that mean? Like what? And I was like, well, anybody [00:50:50] that’s reached out to the Princess Trust first, please, because they want to make a change within their lives. So these are people [00:50:55] who really want to make a change, haven’t had privilege necessarily privilege. And they want to learn [00:51:00] this isn’t going to be their job forever in the salon, but they just want work experience. So that’s what we’re [00:51:05] able to offer I love that, I wish we could do that in dentistry. Imagine maybe you get nurses like [00:51:10] nurses and things like that. But but you have to like training nurses and all that stuff [00:51:15] is you could potentially do it as a receptionist. Really like that. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. [00:51:20]

Payman Langroudi: If, if you could, if I had like a magic wand and I [00:51:25] can you could, you can for your business in the next sort of five years, [00:51:30] what would be your sort of dream outcome. What are you looking to do. Are you looking to have [00:51:35] more salons or.

Rhona/Talitha: Manifest it here? Yeah, let’s manifest it when you say it comes true. Um, [00:51:40] actually, having more salons is actually not on my radar because I want to wholesale [00:51:45] to salons. So wholesaling out the hair into LA, New [00:51:50] York, Dubai, Abu Dhabi would be definitely be within the next five years. More states for [00:51:55] sure. In America, potentially another salon. I’m just going to put it out there. Why not? [00:52:00] And, um, if it’s a magic wand. Yeah. And then the products [00:52:05] that we’re bringing out were actually in talks with really exciting buyers. So it would be to be I can’t I’m [00:52:10] under NDA about the products, but that they would be stocked in these dream stores [00:52:15] around the world. One being in America, one being in Australia, and that [00:52:20] it’s very, very successful. And I’m still loving what I’m doing and we’re [00:52:25] constantly evolving. And that would be really the dream. The dream? Yeah. [00:52:30] And you wanna tell us any more about Dubai? Yes. So Dubai. I [00:52:35] recently just got back and can you believe we were there when that my whole work week was there when the floods were [00:52:40] happening. Oh gosh, I know. So that was tricky because I’d actually, uh, [00:52:45] me and my husband were like, we really need a holiday. So we were going to work. He has an office over in Dubai while his [00:52:50] company has an office. So we’re going to work the first week. Second week we’re on holiday and we we got hit with [00:52:55] the floods on the first week.

Rhona/Talitha: So we ended up working our whole holiday in the second week. That’s what I mean. Things always [00:53:00] happen, right? We’re supposed to spend it with the kids. And like every morning I was out by half. Seven missed breakfast most [00:53:05] days, didn’t see the kids till 3 p.m. on our holiday. But anyway, whatever. So yeah, [00:53:10] when we’re when I was over there, I was originally supposed to do a pop up. But, you know, I always think things always [00:53:15] happen for a reason. I always believe in my gut. And I just didn’t feel right. I changed things last minute and moved it to [00:53:20] September. And actually, it would have been the week of the floods. Oh my gosh, I know. [00:53:25] So actually that was amazing. But while I was out there, I had meetings with, um, different salons and it’s all just [00:53:30] about wholesaling the hair into their salons. So that’s all in negotiate final negotiation stages. [00:53:35] Now one of the salons is incredible. They have 30 salons in Dubai in UAE. So that [00:53:40] means our hair will be able to be available to them. We’re doing a pop up in Atlantis The Royal in September. [00:53:45] So yeah, that’s that’s kind of the amazing. And the whole family came out with you whole [00:53:50] fam came. Love it. Yeah. That’s how you take the tribe. You never say anything still.

Payman Langroudi: Right. [00:53:55] You go Liverpool. London. Virgin suffragette. Sally, what do you [00:54:00] reckon is the sort of the driver. How how did this come about?

Rhona/Talitha: The driver for just not [00:54:05] standing still.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rhona/Talitha: Do you just think it’s in you I think [00:54:10] is it just. Do you hate it when you have to stand still? I was just about to say I actually [00:54:15] really enjoy a night in on my own and sometimes being in silence, which I [00:54:20] couldn’t do years ago when we were talking about that stage when I worked in Selfridges, I could never be on my own. I [00:54:25] used to literally have panic attack anxiety. I would really struggle to be on my own, be in my own head. [00:54:30] I enjoy time on my own now because I enjoy the quiet. But I even [00:54:35] if I’m on a night on my own, I’m always thinking, planning what’s next. And I don’t know, [00:54:40] I think is it just my personality? I’m the same. I’ve started crying on Saturday because I was like in [00:54:45] and reading a book, and I said to my partner, I was like, I hate this. And he was like, you need to [00:54:50] find joy in things that you don’t feel like you’re being productive. And sometimes I can get really stuck [00:54:55] into, like a Netflix series, you know, like I watch Baby Reindeer and I finish, like, every episode, you know, [00:55:00] like, I can and like, I, you know, I really hate it when people are like, oh, I don’t watch television. [00:55:05] It’s a waste of time. I’m like, no, because actually I learn loads from like documentaries and films [00:55:10] and things like that. And I, I actually think it can be a really nice way to escape as well. You know, [00:55:15] it’s a switch off. Yeah. Exactly. To switch off is it.

Payman Langroudi: But is it some sort of like ADHD [00:55:20] trait? Do you know.

Rhona/Talitha: What I actually have done? Like a few online quizzes to see if I have ADHD? [00:55:25] Because I am sure I do. It’s obviously a lot more common than we think [00:55:30] maybe. And also we think of like, I think sometimes when you think of ADHD, you think of the extremes, right? Whereas most [00:55:35] people probably have some aspect of ADHD within them. I don’t know, maybe I should go and be diagnosed. [00:55:40] Yeah. But I think I think also I mean, ultimately I had a chat with my therapist [00:55:45] and she’s just referred me to be checked because she was like, I just think you do have ADHD and a lot of my friends do. But [00:55:50] it’s, you know, they say that on the one hand, it makes people really successful because [00:55:55] I think when when I thought of ADHD like ten years ago, 15 years ago, I think of those really hyper children I was going to [00:56:00] say having done like really climbing up the walls.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s being this thing [00:56:05] being her biggest strength and her biggest weakness. I think it’s really insightful, you know? Yeah. [00:56:10]

Rhona/Talitha: Personal life. Not great business. Great. Yeah. And that’s and I think [00:56:15] that’s the thing like they they talk exactly about that that you can multitask, get stuff done, [00:56:20] etc.. But it’s in the personal life that it can become more difficult. So it is really [00:56:25] interesting. Um, is.

Payman Langroudi: There an aspect of your business that you hate?

Rhona/Talitha: Aecom. [00:56:30] Yeah, I mean, I listen, [00:56:35] there’s this isn’t there’s no way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, [00:56:40] I think there’s to hire a person to do that. Exactly.

Rhona/Talitha: Me too. I [00:56:45] hire people for the things obviously I’m not good at, and that’s obviously just a smart way to do things.

Payman Langroudi: So what do you think [00:56:50] you’re not good at?

Rhona/Talitha: I’m really not good at numbers. Figures. Me too. Me too, [00:56:55] me too. Um. Me too. I just got because that’s not the way our brain works. Yeah, because we have [00:57:00] ADHD. Yeah, I literally, literally, I hate it, I know I do it, I can’t do it. [00:57:05] And even like the accounts at the end of the year, now I give them the accounts were like sitting there and it’s like your [00:57:10] head’s like, oh my God, I’m so overwhelmed. I would literally rather do anything else. I have to speak to my accountant, actually, [00:57:15] when I get out of here and we’re running through a few things and I’m already, like, overwhelmed. [00:57:20] Yeah, I just don’t want to even the thought of it. It’s just not where I comfortably sit. My husband [00:57:25] comfortably sits there. He deals with my guys. Exactly. Finance. Right. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: He’s in finance. [00:57:30]

Rhona/Talitha: He’s in finance. So I can sometimes send him things and he’ll break it down. Like [00:57:35] he really helps with that aspect. But yeah, I absolutely hate those side of things. But of course it’s important you’re running [00:57:40] a business. You need to kind of know where the figures are at. So it’s somewhat important. Yeah. I [00:57:45] think at the end of the day, if you are an entrepreneur that sits more in the creative space like you [00:57:50] and I do, marketing also is like, you know, the thing that I love, you need [00:57:55] people on your team who trust, and you need people that can help you make those decisions. And I think it’s not [00:58:00] about trying to put the pressure on yourself to be 100% amazing at every single aspect. [00:58:05] Yeah, I definitely I’ve actually just heard well, she’s been here a year now. I’ve got an amazing manager of the salon. [00:58:10] Her name’s Brooke, she’s from Australia and she’s incredible. And actually she we were talking you you touched [00:58:15] on it before about being lonely when, you know, start the job. And sometimes I feel very like [00:58:20] founder. Loneliness is a thing. I feel like I have all these decisions on me.

Rhona/Talitha: If [00:58:25] I don’t make a decision, who else is going to make a decision? If this doesn’t work, it’s not on anybody else but me. I’ve got to pay [00:58:30] all these people da da da da da. And but she’s actually been a real pillar of strength in me bouncing ideas off. [00:58:35] And it’s actually been amazing. And I really value her opinion. So she’s been really good, actually [00:58:40] for the business and good for my sanity as well. And sometimes when I go to pull out of things because I’m too overwhelmed, she’s [00:58:45] like, no, you need to do this because of X, Y, and Z. And she’s made me go forward with [00:58:50] things which I’m so glad I’ve got. Question for you. Yeah. One of the last questions. Yeah. Do you find it difficult [00:58:55] to be vulnerable? I feel like I’ve been quite vulnerable in this podcast. Yeah, yeah, [00:59:00] and you have. But do you feel like you find it difficult to be vulnerable at work or at home? Yeah. [00:59:05] Interesting. Yeah. You stopped me in my tracks. Yeah, [00:59:10] yeah, I think I.

Payman Langroudi: Think that’s weakness. It.

Rhona/Talitha: Do you see it as weakness, or do [00:59:15] you fear like.

Payman Langroudi: I feel like you see it as strength.

Rhona/Talitha: I see it as strength. It is the moment [00:59:20] that I. I will be that person that will break down at work. Will you? And I will be that person [00:59:25] that will cry and ask for help. And I feel that [00:59:30] sometimes I feel judgement and sometimes I recognise how backward it is. But I [00:59:35] also think that we’re all human beings, and shared experience of vulnerability is almost a [00:59:40] superpower, and shared experience of vulnerability makes people know and understand [00:59:45] that we are human. Yeah. Will everyone understand it? No. Will everyone break [00:59:50] down their walls? No. But I think that the old school notion of, you know, just [00:59:55] there’s no such thing as depression, there’s no such thing as anxiety. Just get on with it, okay? Sure. You know, [01:00:00] my parents grew up in the Middle East, war torn countries. I don’t think they had time to be depressed, you [01:00:05] know? But I think that there is something to be said for these shared experiences. [01:00:10] I think it’s amazing that you can do that. Yeah, for sure. And that’s exactly how [01:00:15] everybody should be. It’s not the way that I am. And sometimes I felt like I was carrying [01:00:20] the weight of the world on my shoulders. My daughter actually went through a really awful time [01:00:25] when she was very young, like ten weeks old. She was in intensive care unit. Sorry. And [01:00:30] she’s absolutely fine now. Perfect health. But like, you know, it’s a very challenging time and I still like a week later I was coming to [01:00:35] work facing work. And I was really traumatised obviously by the whole experience. And I sometimes [01:00:40] I felt like I was there, but I wasn’t present, like people were talking, but I couldn’t. I couldn’t take [01:00:45] it in. And then I just walk out of like a zombie and they God knows what my team or anyone thought of me [01:00:50] at the time like, but I never shared with them until later. I find it very hard [01:00:55] to talk about. I’ve never really even talked about this, because I find it very hard to talk about very difficult situations [01:01:00] whilst they’re happening. Yeah, I just won’t do it.

Payman Langroudi: Process.

Rhona/Talitha: First I have to process. [01:01:05] I do that usually alone. Alone. Yeah, but that’s okay. You know, [01:01:10] people process things in different ways. You know, I’m interested.

Payman Langroudi: In one other thing. Um, you know, both [01:01:15] of you are in the business of cosmetics, right? And, and we know as [01:01:20] dentists, one of the worst situations is you stick all the stuff on, the person says [01:01:25] love, it goes home, and then someone says something, and then they come back and.

Rhona/Talitha: Come back, and my partner doesn’t like [01:01:30] them. And then they.

Payman Langroudi: Say, I hate it. Yeah, yeah. And with us, it’s actually quite damaging now to remove [01:01:35] all this stuff, let alone let alone costly. Yeah. For everyone. Yeah. But damaging. But [01:01:40] you must have had some. And we sometimes call that a body dysmorphia thing where the person’s [01:01:45] sort of got a problem and they think fixing the teeth will fix that problem. You must come to a point.

Rhona/Talitha: Actually. [01:01:50] Yeah. I’ve never looked at it like that.

Payman Langroudi: It must come across that sort of situation with women in hair, right?

Rhona/Talitha: Yeah. Listen, [01:01:55] we work with all, you know, all sorts of people, all sorts of people. And of course, we’ve had [01:02:00] that happen. And I think I just have to call it at the end of the day, is it worth the brand [01:02:05] damage and what she’s going to go around saying about us saying about the hair extensions, saying [01:02:10] about everything the Google reviews, the da da da. Do we just take it, [01:02:15] take the hit, take them out, refund, walk away. It’s a lesson learnt, both [01:02:20] sides. That’s usually what I’ll do. And what will really do is to try. [01:02:25] And I’m sure you’re the exact same both of you. Like, you know, we’ll really try and safeguard that. As in like we have [01:02:30] a very strict process now and they have to sign saying say they [01:02:35] are happy this is not coming out the head. Yeah. Because they are very happy [01:02:40] to pay this amount. And now it’s very rarely happened since we’ve put that [01:02:45] we’ve we’ve actually now implemented a no refund policy. I had a very yeah [01:02:50] I’ll tell you what happened. I had a girl come in. Um, uh, God. Six, seven [01:02:55] months ago, her teeth were really in a bad, bad state. Like, really bad falling apart, like [01:03:00] bonding. Um, we talked about it, everything, etc.. Then she decided [01:03:05] to have her. So she was happy to go ahead with the treatment plan. And [01:03:10] she was really weird on the day. I was getting a bit of a bad vibe off her, so I made sure [01:03:15] to make like really like copious notes about what she had wanted with her teeth. And [01:03:20] like halfway through the appointment, she was like, oh, can I have anaesthetic? [01:03:25] Like raise the hand? And I was like, okay, yeah, of course, even though I’d offered her before, she didn’t want it.

Rhona/Talitha: And then [01:03:30] when I showed her the mirror, she was like, oh yeah, they look nice. And then she went upstairs. Five minutes later [01:03:35] my receptionist messaged me saying, X patient is not happy. So I ran upstairs and I was like, I’ve got to bring in [01:03:40] someone. But it’s bonding. You can adjust it, you know, like, so don’t panic. Like it’s not like, you know, it’s an [01:03:45] unadjustable thing. She was like, no, no, no, I think I need to live with it first. And I said, okay, sure. Because I’m numb. I’m [01:03:50] like, that’s fine, live with it. We can always come back and you can always come back in two weeks or whatever. And [01:03:55] then we basically called her a million times to try and review her, [01:04:00] and then she wasn’t coming back and she’d called Amex to take the refund. [01:04:05] We’ve had the exact same thing. And then we disputed [01:04:10] it with Amex. And then she came back. And then eventually my practice manager, my treatment coordinator [01:04:15] were like, if you. Okay, so I decided to call her bluff. I said, if she doesn’t like [01:04:20] it and she wants a refund, I’ll remove all the bonding 100% because if she doesn’t [01:04:25] like it, I can remove it because I’m very minimal with my bonding. It’s not a great big deal. And her teeth underneath weren’t [01:04:30] horrendous. So I was like, that’s fine, I could remove it all if she wants a refund. She refused to [01:04:35] come in and then eventually I just don’t feel comfortable seeing her and I don’t feel comfortable.

Rhona/Talitha: This went on for like months because [01:04:40] I was like, I’m so mortified that this has happened. Eventually we offered her to see like one of my, [01:04:45] like, best cosmetic dentists. He was like, this is a really good like, I can tweak it a bit. She’ll be happy. She [01:04:50] agreed. As soon as she walks in, she’s like, I’m not having anything removed. That’s the first thing. Imagine if you hate something [01:04:55] so much, aren’t you going to be like, get it off? So she spent five minutes in the chair and then left and then still [01:05:00] insisted, insisted, and by the end of it, I just did what you did. I said, you know what? Give her the flipping money [01:05:05] back, I don’t care. But since then we’ve now written a refund policy saying no refunds. [01:05:10] And if you if for bonding and if you want to get a refund, you have to get it removed. I think, you know, [01:05:15] it’s interesting with the Amex thing because we’ve actually had it twice and we had it twice over Christmas. And what happens is [01:05:20] people spend so much money, they panic that they then have to Christmas time. Yeah, it always happens [01:05:25] around Christmas, I swear to you. And it’ll be like they’ve spent all this money and then [01:05:30] they’ve got the teeth done and they’ve got the hair extensions done. It’s over a grand couple grand, whatever. And [01:05:35] they need the money back and they go to Amex. And I have disputed every single one with Amex and I’ve won them. Yeah. [01:05:40] Because I think one key.

Payman Langroudi: Thing though, one key thing that you should both be aware of, is [01:05:45] that it’s not worth ruining the experience for your reasonable [01:05:50] patience, patience and customers because you’re trying to protect from the one that [01:05:55] might be trying to get something over on you. So let me give you an example of that. I’ll be one [01:06:00] guarantee. Yeah, we guarantee results with our product.

Rhona/Talitha: B one is the lightest colour.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. There’s no [01:06:05] way of checking. I mean, you know someone. Yeah. Someone can take two pictures at the beginning. [01:06:10] Send us these two pictures and say it didn’t work, you know, cannot check that. Yeah. On occasion, [01:06:15] several times, three, four times a year. The team say this guy is trying it on. Yeah. [01:06:20] I’m happy for this guy to try it on so that when the, you know, [01:06:25] you, one of my top customers calls me up and say, hey, pay this. This didn’t work this time. But yeah, [01:06:30] the team were like, sort you out. Oh yeah.

Rhona/Talitha: You’re.

Payman Langroudi: Right. You’re important as [01:06:35] a top customer. Yeah. The fact that someone got one over on me isn’t [01:06:40] as painful as it should be. And it’s difficult because you don’t want anyone to get one over you and our sales team, or actually [01:06:45] in touch with the people. They feel it, you know? They feel it. Yeah. This guy thinks he got one [01:06:50] over on me. Yeah, yeah.

Rhona/Talitha: I get you. But I also think, like, it’s important to protect because you [01:06:55] work so hard and you have to remember, like, doing treatments like hair extensions and bond. It’s so much time, [01:07:00] you know, and I get it time and a time and expense. And you also don’t want to develop a reputation [01:07:05] where people think they can constantly do one over you as well. You know, I think that’s important. Now, we’d have to probably bring [01:07:10] you back for part two of like business disputes. But we have run out of time. I just want to thank [01:07:15] you so much, Talitha, for being so honest, open and vulnerable today. You are honestly such an inspiration, [01:07:20] not only an incredible mother, an incredible businesswoman, and I really appreciate you coming [01:07:25] to speak to us today. Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, so did I, Fox and fam [01:07:30] guys, go have a look. It is amazing okay. Thank you so much. Thank.