Onkar: When I was in fifth year dental school, I kept seeing like junior doctor, F1 bloggers, junior [00:00:05] doctor, junior F1, F2 and YouTubers and I’m like, why is there no foundation dentist [00:00:10] doing this? Like, I knew of you, I knew of yourself, I knew of George the Dentist and people that you know. [00:00:15] But I was like, why is there no vet doing this? Right? So that was my niche. And I thought, let [00:00:20] me go on to that niche because no one’s doing it and I’ll do it. And that is just how it unfolded. It [00:00:25] was like days in the life, posting small clinical cases, then posting little videos, and [00:00:30] then it just took off.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:40] is mind movers. Moving the conversation [00:00:45] forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. Your [00:00:50] hosts Rhona Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Welcome [00:00:55] to another episode of Mind Movies. Today we’ve got [00:01:00] the incredible doctor on car. Doctor on car is a trailblazer. A trailblazer within [00:01:05] the young Dental community. The one thing that I remember about anchor. Is that he was a very [00:01:10] keen young dentist, and even when he was studying, he actively went out there to the social media dentist [00:01:15] and said, can I do work experience? Can I learn from you? Anchor has taken the social [00:01:20] media world by storm. He has 50,000 followers on TikTok, [00:01:25] but importantly, a huge, huge amount of engagement. He is known and loved by a lot [00:01:30] of people in the public, mainly talking about his experiences working on the NHS and [00:01:35] what happens as a dental student. Anchor has been keen to also share [00:01:40] his experience of his own mental health and burnout within this. He works in hospital [00:01:45] in practice and also does facial aesthetics. So welcome anchor.

Onkar: I need that intro like [00:01:50] in my life. Every day, every day when I’m feel crap about myself.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. I love that [00:01:55] I’ll record it and send it to you.

Onkar: Thanks for having me both of you. Really appreciate it. Thanks for coming. Thank you.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. Okay, so [00:02:00] anchor you are. You graduated in 2019, right?

Onkar: Yeah. Five years ago now. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Wow. That makes [00:02:05] you like I graduated in 2000. I graduated in 2010. So that’s kind of like [00:02:10] mental for me to process. So let’s have a little bit of a [00:02:15] start from the beginning. Where did you grow up. How did you get into dentistry?

Onkar: Okay. So I [00:02:20] grew up in Essex like Essex Boy through and through. I don’t have the accent. I’m [00:02:25] quite well-spoken. I thank my parents for that. For primary school. That was good. Yeah. They told us not to drop our [00:02:30] teas and actually speak properly. So I did primary school there, secondary school there. And then [00:02:35] when I was in Essex, so Barkingside and like Gants Hill, all of that area and [00:02:40] then moved over to like Hornchurch, which is like deep, deep Essex, like Towie land. Yeah. [00:02:45] So I went from like very multicultural Essex to Towie and now like this is very different. Yeah. So [00:02:50] I was there throughout secondary school and then throughout secondary school. I think like all [00:02:55] of us, maybe I was a bit of a skiver like I was very good at [00:03:00] working under pressure so I would piss around in lessons. I was a bit of a class clown, like a bit of a joker, [00:03:05] and I would end up, you know, doing really badly throughout the whole school year. And then at the end of [00:03:10] term, smashing all my exams. So that trend kept happening for, you know, three years. And [00:03:15] then I got to my GCSE year and that did not happen and I bombed everything. Yeah. [00:03:20] So that’s kind of where my passion for dentistry began, because at that [00:03:25] point was when I was like, I want to do dentistry or medicine, I’d failed and bombed all [00:03:30] of these internal exams, and now all of the teachers at school and the careers advisers said, you can’t do it. We’re [00:03:35] going to put you into bottom set for everything. You know, back in those like 2010 for GCSEs, [00:03:40] if you were bottom set or you were like foundation set, you couldn’t apply for those kinds of degrees. I think things have changed [00:03:45] a bit now, but all those things were like a big barrier. And then, [00:03:50] yeah, that’s kind of that initial sort of inspiration was from wanting to prove teachers wrong, [00:03:55] if that makes sense.

Rhona Eskander: So then what happened? How did you then get into do the grades that [00:04:00] you needed to get?

Onkar: I honestly like what happened if it’s like only a bit Dental. I [00:04:05] didn’t revise for those exams because I hadn’t exposed, unbuttoned and something for occluded eats I had [00:04:10] to have extracted under GA. Yeah, so I was in hospital. I was back and forth between orthodontists. I just [00:04:15] didn’t revise. So I that’s why I bombed the exams. I told the teachers [00:04:20] and staff like, I’ll prove you all wrong. They kept me in bottom sets. They just they were like, you need to get these [00:04:25] grades. And if you don’t, we’re still going to keep you in those bottom sets. Got the grades? My parents came in, you know, ethnic [00:04:30] parents. They came in one day, fought my case for me. They were like, we need him to, you know, we really want him. [00:04:35] He wants to pursue this. Like, why are you holding him back? You know, so we had this, like, 40 [00:04:40] minute meeting, and I remember the physics teacher was like, to me, you’ll never get into dental school. Medical [00:04:45] school. Like it’s never going to happen to you, so stop. But I’m going to prove you wrong. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:04:50] think it’s dangerous. You know, Payman and I often talk about the educational system. It’s just [00:04:55] such an old system. I feel like. Why are they still teaching Pythagoras’s theorem? [00:05:00] You know, like in school, when we don’t learn about subjects that will do something [00:05:05] for our lives and our benefit. And I also feel that there is such a lack of understanding [00:05:10] for different types of brains. I think your children are very academic. Naturally, [00:05:15] I understand, but. I forgot to tell you. Last week [00:05:20] I went for an assessment and I officially have ADHD diagnosis. [00:05:25]

Onkar: So yeah, I’m not surprised.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Me too. By [00:05:30] the way.

Rhona Eskander: How could you get a proper assessment? Exactly. So I think a proper assessment with a psychiatrist. [00:05:35] And she was like, not even on the spectrum. Like I’m fully in. I’m fully in. Right. I’ve got it.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:05:40] does it make you feel better than you are now as a name?

Rhona Eskander: Somewhat. But my therapist [00:05:45] had always been said that she thought I had a very neurodivergent brain, and my partner was very much [00:05:50] like, I feel like too many people are being overdiagnosed incorrect labels. And you think I’ve said it. [00:05:55] And he also said he blames on social media and phones. Because if you take it away now, [00:06:00] and also I think there’s two schools of thought. The old school psychiatrist thinks it’s [00:06:05] very much a childhood disease and people can grow out of it. And obviously, when I used [00:06:10] to think of ADHD as a child, it was the child that was like climbing up the walls. You remember those ones that just [00:06:15] could not sit still was super naughty. I wasn’t that child, but I definitely think [00:06:20] I’ve got a neurodivergent brain in the sense that teachers said I wouldn’t get anywhere. I flopped [00:06:25] all of my exams, but the one thing that I had to do was was hyperfocus [00:06:30] and get loads of support. So because I went to a private school and was privileged to do so, I [00:06:35] sought support from the teachers. Yeah, I hyper focussed on the stuff that I was good at, [00:06:40] but self-directed learning or anything like that could not do, could not do. It was like [00:06:45] the way that my brain would memorise things. So I got 100% in my English literature paper. But [00:06:50] that’s because I’d written out the Desdemona from Othello. I’d [00:06:55] written out that same essay 25 million times. So when it came up in the A levels, I [00:07:00] just did that does that. It wasn’t necessarily regurgitated. It pretty much so obviously, [00:07:05] she said. I have the type of brain, which is the misconception that I know how to cope. [00:07:10] It’s not like it’s debilitating. Again, with my practice, people say, how can you do a podcast? How can you run [00:07:15] a practice? How can you do all these things? You must be so busy. I’m like, no, it’s because I have a huge [00:07:20] support network in front of me. Like Payman sorts out all the editing. So the podcast, I bring the guests and do the creative [00:07:25] stuff. My practice is pretty much run by people that I’ve employed.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:07:30] are you saying you also have?

Onkar: I feel like I’m self-diagnosed, but who isn’t? I’ve always felt [00:07:35] scatty and like I felt like I like the way my brain works, though I enjoy that. It’s crazy in there. And that’s why [00:07:40] I wanted to prove people wrong and prove teachers wrong. Because, you know, a lot of people know this. My dad’s a dentist, [00:07:45] and he’s always been a big inspiration to me, and he still works. He’s in his 60s. He’s kind of like your dad, right? Right. I have passion for [00:07:50] their job. And I think, unfortunately, there’s this stupid label now of, like, Nepo baby. Like your dad got you [00:07:55] into school. Nobody did. Did my dad do my A-levels for me? He did not. Did my dad do my dental school exams? [00:08:00] No. Yeah, yeah. In fact, when my dad went to dental school in the 70s, I think it was a bit harder. Yeah. [00:08:05] When your dad went to medical school, it was harder. There was more exams. I’m pretty sure it was more rigorous. Yeah, still [00:08:10] difficult now, but that label annoys me. And I had that throughout school as well as [00:08:15] uni. People were like, your dad’s a dentist. You must have it so lucky. In fact, someone was like, he’s [00:08:20] so lucky he has his dad because he can go home and talk about cases. I’m not chatting to my dad about [00:08:25] work when I go home, I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, when.

Onkar: I was in.

Rhona Eskander: Quite strongly about this [00:08:30] whole nepo baby thing.

Payman Langroudi: Well, no.

Rhona Eskander: No, in the sense that you think it’s really unfair that people think it’s unfair.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But [00:08:35] you’ve got to acknowledge that there is some advantage in having a dad who’s a dentist.

Onkar: For [00:08:40] me, I was I’m blessed to have his expertise in my back pocket, but I [00:08:45] don’t like the insinuation of he got me into dental school. I think that irritated me because [00:08:50] I flopped my A-levels again a gap year. I had four rejections and then went to four offers [00:08:55] like I went through it in my gap year on my own, like 18. All my mates had gone to uni. [00:09:00] One other person took a gap year with me. Well did you on your gap year?

Rhona Eskander: So I had.

Onkar: To reset my A-levels. Right? So [00:09:05] you.

Rhona Eskander: Just studied the whole of the.

Onkar: Gap, that chemistry, I reset geography, I worked like three different jobs because I [00:09:10] knew it’s a five year degree. I want to save up some money and I did a little bit of travelling around Europe. [00:09:15] Nothing crazy. I didn’t find myself on like a mountain somewhere I wish I did.

Rhona Eskander: I honestly wish, yeah. Me too, [00:09:20] me too, I wish I.

Onkar: Did and I wish I didn’t have to reset those exams. You know, all my I remember [00:09:25] my mates and my mum telling me like my mum especially was like work hard, like smash [00:09:30] those exams, enjoy that whole year because we’ll never have that again. And I was like, nah mum, it’ll be [00:09:35] fine. Like I’ll be fine. But A-levels are hard. I think certain elements of A-levels are probably harder than dental [00:09:40] school for me, and when I saw those grades and I was like, it’s not even a flop, like two [00:09:45] A’s and two B’s is not a flop to the general public, but to people who are high achievers. I need [00:09:50] like three stars or whatever. You’re like a flopped. And then that’s when you kind of go [00:09:55] wish and you think I’ve messed this up now, you know. So I think that was a really [00:10:00] important I needed that because I didn’t have that because I bounced back. A-levels was my first taste [00:10:05] of failure. B’s aren’t a failure. But for me, I was like, oh my God, I know life. [00:10:10] And I remember like I bought that. Is it The Guardian or The Times that has the clearing list [00:10:15] in the newspaper? Yeah. And. You read the op ed and I was highlighting things. I’m a medicine [00:10:20] was in clearing and I was like, do I do it? Do I do it? Do I bring like Liverpool [00:10:25] Uni and go for medicine? I like, move or do I stick to my guns and actually pursue [00:10:30] that dental school dream? And I’m glad I did. What did your parents say?

Rhona Eskander: What did they encourage you to do?

Onkar: My [00:10:35] dad is honestly like he always said to me, like, do what you want to do. Yeah. The [00:10:40] reason why he drew me towards dentistry is because every day he came home was a good day. [00:10:45] I never I’ve never heard that man talk badly about dentistry yet. He loves people. He loves his job. [00:10:50] He comes home and he talks about it with passion. Yeah. And I was like, can’t be that bad. Like, it [00:10:55] can’t be that bad if he loves his job. Yeah. On the other side, you know, we’ve all got medical friends and family [00:11:00] and other complete other industries. And I never heard people talk about their [00:11:05] jobs that way. Yeah. I shadowed in, like, you know, hospitals, GP [00:11:10] practices, banks, like, everywhere that I could, you know, as far as going [00:11:15] to like, restaurants and looking into, like, being a chef. And I was like, I [00:11:20] don’t know, I actually don’t know. And sometimes I still don’t know if I’m doing the right thing. Like Shock bombshell, [00:11:25] I don’t still don’t know if dentistry is like something I’ll do forever.

Payman Langroudi: You’re very [00:11:30] early on, very five years.

Onkar: Like five years post-grad.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very early on. But I mean, [00:11:35] where did you study things and how did you take to university?

Onkar: I loved uni [00:11:40] like, I, I loved the social element of uni. [00:11:45] I’m a people like we’re all like I love like just people and like being around people. And for [00:11:50] uni, having that gap year and having like two friends and being a little bit low going into a year [00:11:55] of like 140 people your age, new social network, so much London. I love London, [00:12:00] I’m from London. I was stuck between London and Leeds. And though Leeds is is your alma mater, [00:12:05] right? They were my two top unis and I had two offers from them and other unis, and it was nice [00:12:10] because I had four rejections that year before. So I was like, I’ve got options now. Yeah, pending my A-levels. [00:12:15] But that year of my gap year, like it was special. Like I knew I’d get in, like my exams [00:12:20] all went well, all my revision material went well. Like all those entrance exams.

Payman Langroudi: Change you and you [00:12:25] become a more serious studier at that point or still.

Onkar: No, I knew there was more like stuff [00:12:30] that was basically more to on the table. Like if I didn’t get in a second time around as [00:12:35] a research offer holder, there was no chance I’d get in a third time. Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: Going forward in Kingston, um, were [00:12:40] you much more serious then.

Onkar: I think? Yes and no. I became more serious [00:12:45] at the start of my first year. I was definitely more serious, but I was implementing the wrong things. [00:12:50] So whether this is ADHD, brain or whatever, I was trying to work like an A-level student [00:12:55] in uni and that method didn’t work. Like writing pretty notes and trying to memorise things was [00:13:00] not working. So then I almost failed first year and then I was like, shit, something’s not right here. Like, [00:13:05] this is not the way I need to go moving forward. Like you’re passing exams by 1%. [00:13:10] Skin of your teeth. Yeah, pardon the pun. And then second year [00:13:15] as well. Like passed one exam. Well and the other exam was like again 51%. [00:13:20] And I was like what is happening. And then like literally uni when I failed that exam, [00:13:25] I failed an exam in first year uni, which didn’t count. It was like a middle of the year hurdle. And [00:13:30] they called me in for a meeting and they were like, you’re crazy. Like because your first exam was 51 and this exam [00:13:35] was 49. Like you’re basically averaging effect, like fail, like you’re studying. I was [00:13:40] like, of course I’m studying like, I this is how I work. They’re like, something’s not right. Like the way you’re working [00:13:45] is not right. But I think they just thought I was party animal, which was definitely not the case. I honestly was putting in [00:13:50] the hours, but it was not right then. It all changed in my third year of dental school when I realised how [00:13:55] I actually work, and I’ve used that method ever since. And now photographic memory.

Rhona Eskander: The [00:14:00] thing is, the educational system is so flawed because I knew how I worked really well, and going [00:14:05] from a kid that was told that they’d never make anything of their lives and just might be good at drama. Yeah, to [00:14:10] smashing my A levels, getting a scholarship, etc. and then getting into dental school. [00:14:15] I really hated the philosophy of first of all, you’re with the most intelligent people in the country. Just [00:14:20] aim to pass. That’s what they told you. And like I found that just so demeaning. You know, you [00:14:25] have gone to school to be like, I’m going to get four A’s to just pass. And they made everything [00:14:30] so difficult and so impossible. I just don’t think it’s actually a very encouraging way of thinking, [00:14:35] and I don’t think it’s very helpful to the students. And I think it has a massive impact on [00:14:40] their self-esteem and their self-confidence. So it’s a flawed system, in my opinion.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:14:45] mean, how would you change it?

Rhona Eskander: I think we need to account for the fact that people [00:14:50] work in different ways. I have no idea. But I think we have not [00:14:55] reviewed the systems in school and university for centuries. It’s madness. [00:15:00]

Payman Langroudi: You know what Elon Musk talks about? School should be streamed by subject. [00:15:05] Explain. So you could be a 12 year old in a class with a 17 year old in [00:15:10] physics.

Rhona Eskander: Because you’re amazing at.

Payman Langroudi: Physics, progress in physics, but you could be in a class with a four year [00:15:15] not for you, a seven year old in English, you know? So you don’t just go [00:15:20] up because of your age. You different subjects. Yeah. And I agree with that to some [00:15:25] extent. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Because that’s a bit like getting a university degree. Right. Because then you go to university and you refine what you’re good at. If you [00:15:30] really.

Payman Langroudi: Are good at something, you should progress, you know, and it shouldn’t just be age based, [00:15:35] you know, it’s a well, that’s one idea. I was asking someone, what would you do to to [00:15:40] the Dental course, because there’s a lot of the Dental course you never use and Krebs cycle. [00:15:45]

Onkar: Yeah, right.

Rhona Eskander: Cycles.

Payman Langroudi: But bearing in mind some dentists go on to, you know, develop [00:15:50] drugs and so they need to know, you know, so there is that there’s other bits of important [00:15:55] bits of dentistry that don’t get covered at all. Right. No, no ortho, no whitening for the sake [00:16:00] of the argument. And so what would you take out. And I said I would take out full dentures. Yeah. [00:16:05] But then I interviewed a guy. Well, I interviewed a guy [00:16:10] the day before yesterday actually came out today. Yeah. And he’s a super duper prosthodontist. [00:16:15] Youngest ever specialist in Ireland, head of the Irish Dental Association. [00:16:20] And I said to him, what was your aha moment when you think of occlusion? And he said [00:16:25] that full dentures are the key to everything and that’s how that’s where smile design [00:16:30] came from. That’s what all the occlusion stuff came so and so you suddenly realise that, you know that me saying take [00:16:35] full dentures out. This guy was saying it’s everything it made.

Rhona Eskander: Taking [00:16:40] the stuff out. Maybe it’s about adding it in, because why aren’t we learning about that?

Onkar: You can’t just say, why [00:16:45] don’t we learn about tax at school? Opening an ice star like saving money, getting a mortgage, getting [00:16:50] a mortgage. Like how cool that should be school. But like, even like, if the dumbest things are like [00:16:55] getting a credit card. Like, no one teaches you to build your credit rating in school. Like, why do we learn pi whether.

Rhona Eskander: To become a limited [00:17:00] company? All this stuff.

[TRANSITION]: I should be schooled.

Rhona Eskander: That should be school.

[TRANSITION]: I think schools should.

Onkar: Teach you more important [00:17:05] life lessons. I think it’d be very hard for a dental school to tailor their teaching towards every [00:17:10] different individual personality type. I’ve now gone back there and I teach there, right? [00:17:15] So back at my uni, what do you teach? So it’s like dental emergencies, acute dental care [00:17:20] or surgery and all of that.

Rhona Eskander: And like so when you graduated let’s let’s rewind a little bit. So [00:17:25] you graduated and then where’s your DVT.

Onkar: Foundation training again like deep [00:17:30] Essex Brentwood.

Rhona Eskander: You hate it.

Onkar: Love it. Um it was really good until obviously we had the pandemic, which feels like [00:17:35] a fever dream. And I think like, you know, it was an awful time, but it was it was at that time [00:17:40] where I was getting confident with stuff. And then it was. Almost like. And everything was like locked down again. And [00:17:45] there’s pros and cons to everything, but that’s when I was really enjoying practice. I [00:17:50] was feeling really confident and kind of sad. At home, you’re on the phones and there’s [00:17:55] worse things that happen in Covid and people lost their lives. So I’m not complaining about that. But it’s you know, it [00:18:00] was that was was really pinnacle moment for me because I was like, maybe I should try other options. [00:18:05] And that’s when I started looking at hospital jobs. So then I did two years of all surgery, [00:18:10] like Max.

Payman Langroudi: To feel the first time you got into your clinic. [00:18:15] Horrendous. I was I couldn’t believe it, man. I couldn’t believe that all of that [00:18:20] was for this.

Rhona Eskander: No, no, no. But mine was horrendous because I was humiliated. I was somebody’s. [00:18:25]

Payman Langroudi: Idea.

Rhona Eskander: I was humiliated because I basically [00:18:30] didn’t get in, so I put myself. So what happened was I made this decision for I [00:18:35] want to go back down south and I’m not happy up north. Leeds complete done. Five years at Leeds. I want [00:18:40] to go back home. I want to be home. But I’ve made the active decision that I don’t want to be London because I heard the practices [00:18:45] in London were really bad, so I thought Kent, Surrey, Sussex seems like the logical thing to do. And [00:18:50] then I realised, and I think it’s different from when you were doing it. It was so political because [00:18:55] you go for interviews and realise that people gave people jobs because they knew someone or knew someone’s [00:19:00] brother or sister or friend or whatever. And I had no contacts in the dental world. So I dragged myself [00:19:05] through these interviews rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection. So then I went a step further [00:19:10] and I applied to another deanery altogether. Everyone else had pretty much had an offer. I was the only [00:19:15] person in my year that had didn’t have an offer. I felt like such a failure. I literally applied [00:19:20] to everything and I was like, I do not want to work in Norfolk. I do not want to work in Norfolk. And what was the reason? [00:19:25]

[TRANSITION]: Do you think you are bad at interviews?

Rhona Eskander: I think no, the thing is, is this is the crazy thing. Like, I like [00:19:30] to think that, you know, interpersonal skills and speaking is my [00:19:35] strong suit. But it was weird, like, I remember having a job interview at Stevenage and they were like. And it was like a [00:19:40] really NHS practice. And I think they had a lot of like, community work type dentistry. And [00:19:45] they were like, you’re too good pretty much for this job. That’s what they said to me. [00:19:50] And then I go, okay, fine. And then I wanted to be at some practices in Essex. And you know, they were kind [00:19:55] of like two Asian lads that always like had like Asian. It was it was really hard. And I would [00:20:00] do everything. I would drag myself all over the country and it was demeaning. And then eventually. [00:20:05] One practice in Kent. I think they only had two applicants because [00:20:10] at this point you can apply for as many practices as you want. Did it have a rep.

Onkar: At this point? Did you know this practice [00:20:15] had a rep?

Rhona Eskander: No. I just literally was like, this is a practice in Kent. And they had two people. [00:20:20] They rejected one person and I, they accepted me. But it was I barely [00:20:25] got in pretty much. And then was it an awful practice? No, it was a little village in Kent. Um, [00:20:30] it was, you know, little town. What a quiet village, you know, [00:20:35] like the beauty and the beast, you know, that’s how it looked. And I ended up meeting in my [00:20:40] village, Luke Athwal, who works for me now in my practice. And [00:20:45] Luke basically was the one that inspired me because he was working with a boss [00:20:50] that took him to all these different courses. I was the one that was inspired. If I had stayed in [00:20:55] this practice, the little village practice, I would have just been drill till pay the bill kind of dentistry. It was like that. My [00:21:00] boss was nice. She let me do stuff and I won like the best case presentation because [00:21:05] I was always keen. But it was a very underwhelming experience. What about you? [00:21:10]

[TRANSITION]: Mine was.

Onkar: I want to know, I can’t lie, mine was opposite to Rona. I wanted that practice. I ran it quite well. [00:21:15] I got that practice and I was like, well, I’m one of three foundation trainees with massive, huge [00:21:20] surgeries that 14 chairs in one practice, big corporate vibes, you know, [00:21:25] literally day one nothing. Day two, like you’re seeing four patients. Day three, [00:21:30] they’re like, we want bonding. Like. So it was cosmetic demand in Essex and I was like, I’m a DFT. Like, [00:21:35] how am I going to be doing doctor owner veneers on my first day? I can’t do this. So that [00:21:40] made me realise like managing expectations was big. These my Essex patients that I had [00:21:45] there, they had high expectations. Yeah. So I learned that from that practice. It wasn’t [00:21:50] the most glamorous. It was a bit run down. It was primarily NHS, but it taught me a lot, [00:21:55] which was people skills, working with a team of like 50 staff in the practice every day, but then [00:22:00] also practice politics. I’ve never I’ve never had that before, you know, um, this person said this [00:22:05] and I was like, I don’t I don’t need that. Like, I literally want to come to work, do my thing, go home, [00:22:10] you know? And it was it was good. Did I love it? No. Did I actually want to be there every [00:22:15] day? No. But it did teach me what I didn’t want from a practice. Yes. So there was a positive to it.

Rhona Eskander: Before [00:22:20] you went there. You’d obviously been influenced by a lot of Instagram dentists. And was that overwhelming that you [00:22:25] couldn’t do the type of work as someone that was newly qualified or the work that you were seeing on Instagram?

Onkar: Yeah, [00:22:30] I think what it was for me was like, when you’re, you know, fresh out of uni, you’re [00:22:35] expected to do everything. So like, you know, we had like associates in there. It was like send [00:22:40] patient to vet. You know, it was like a mouthful of decay, like nine root canals. And you’re like, [00:22:45] it’s taken me a whole year to do this case. You know, I don’t I don’t I don’t want to do it. You actually want to focus on things [00:22:50] that I enjoy, like surgery and cosmetics. Yeah. But you again, it’s the same thing. It’s the system doesn’t [00:22:55] allow you to develop those skills that early on. And it’s fine. There’s a curriculum which you have to stick to, [00:23:00] but there’s no flexibility from that curriculum. Like, I had a mate who failed to DFT because they didn’t fit [00:23:05] a Maryland bridge. Yeah, it’s like why? But the person is showing competence and everything else. [00:23:10] They bought this boy back to fit a bridge in August. Like, do you know what I mean?

[TRANSITION]: I mean like [00:23:15] social media.

Payman Langroudi: At this point.

[TRANSITION]: I was I.

Onkar: Would say that’s how my social media started. Payman. I was like. [00:23:20]

Rhona Eskander: During lockdown.

[TRANSITION]: Right prior.

Onkar: To so like basically what happened was, was that when I was [00:23:25] in fifth year dental school, I kept seeing like junior doctor, F1 bloggers, junior doctor, [00:23:30] junior F1, F2 and YouTubers and I’m like, why is there no foundation dentist [00:23:35] doing this? Like, I knew of you, I knew of yourself, I knew of George the Dentist and people that you know. But [00:23:40] I was like, why is there no doing this? Right? So that was my niche. And I thought, let me go [00:23:45] on to that niche because no one’s doing it and I’ll do it. And that is just how it unfolded. It was like [00:23:50] days in the life, posting small clinical cases, then posting little videos, and then [00:23:55] it just took off from DFT.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, I’ve got a very important question around this subject. Yes, we [00:24:00] do a composite course. We ask always with the marketing sections and we say, put your hand up [00:24:05] if you’ve got a dental account and there’s 30 people who’ve paid £1,000 [00:24:10] for a composite course, a composite course, it’s not a surgery course. And [00:24:15] in the room of 30 generally there’ll be 6 or 7.

[TRANSITION]: No way. [00:24:20] Only. Only. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the other.

Rhona Eskander: You ask them why they don’t have it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:24:25] yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And why the most common thing is they’re scared to show their work because [00:24:30] they’re worried about what other dentists will think of it.

Rhona Eskander: Other dentists.

[TRANSITION]: The worst.

Payman Langroudi: They haven’t got time [00:24:35] is obviously like the normal excuses or my account, you know, my family [00:24:40] account. I can’t handle two accounts, you know. But basically this is a question I’m going to ask you. How [00:24:45] come you didn’t have these hurdles?

[TRANSITION]: Imposter syndrome, did you?

Payman Langroudi: And how did you get over it?

[TRANSITION]: At [00:24:50] that point, I was like, I.

Onkar: Don’t really care. I’m going to put myself out there because realistically. [00:24:55]

[TRANSITION]: Were you not worried.

Payman Langroudi: What.

[TRANSITION]: Doctor is going.

Payman Langroudi: To think about.

[TRANSITION]: It? No, [00:25:00] I never thought that you.

Rhona Eskander: How old are the age group that they they’re scared of being judged by the dentist because I know the younger ones. [00:25:05] I feel like younger ones are more ready to put themselves out there. And my son.

Payman Langroudi: Is full of young [00:25:10] dentists trying to get.

[TRANSITION]: Private jobs, so they’re.

Rhona Eskander: Not the people that are in their 30s, 40s.

Payman Langroudi: Young dentist trying to get jobs. [00:25:15]

[TRANSITION]: I mean, I’ve.

Onkar: Always been a bit extrovert. I’ve always liked not being the centre of attention. Like, that’s not like I’m not an attention [00:25:20] whore, but like, I’ve always enjoyed, like, you know, in uni I was part of the comedy [00:25:25] show, the Dental Comedy Show. I, you know, used to do that. I’m not scared to put [00:25:30] myself out there. People are always going to talk, whether you do bad or good, like dentists and colleagues unfortunately [00:25:35] will talk whether it’s good or bad. So for me, I was like, I don’t want to post teeth on my personal [00:25:40] account. I’ve got family and friends on there that don’t care about teeth. In fact, my friends were unfollowing me. So like, [00:25:45] we don’t see grotty extractions on our personal page and we’re like, well, we follow you when you open your own doctor account. [00:25:50] So that’s actually also what I did, because my sister and stuff was like, we don’t want to see that we’re not dentists. [00:25:55] And I grant I was I’d be on my personal Instagram and it’d be all teeth. I’d lost [00:26:00] all my friends and family on my following list that every time I’d opened my phone, my suggested page was this. [00:26:05]

Onkar: And no, I don’t. I want to separate that. So that’s where the doctor account came from. It [00:26:10] just came from wanting to make the I think it’s I think like a good way for [00:26:15] me to put it is it’s very easy in dental school. And I see this now with the students [00:26:20] that we teach. Now that I’ve gone back to aspire to be great, it’s it’s [00:26:25] great to have that aspiration. But where’s that journey to get to that greatness? Yeah. Like no one [00:26:30] leaves uni and is great at everything. It takes time. Like you said to me, five years is still a recent grad. [00:26:35] I feel like five years I’ve been through the tracks like I’ve done a lot. But I agree it’s not that much [00:26:40] time right there is. I didn’t think there was anyone showcasing that [00:26:45] young journey all the way up to that. And I think you can aspire to be great [00:26:50] and compare, but comparison can be the thief of joy and you can be like, why am I not as good as dentist X? [00:26:55] Dentist X is 25 years post-grad?

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So I for me it comes down [00:27:00] to are you documenting your journey. Yeah. Yeah. And that that mindset because [00:27:05] I’ve seen several day one dental school posting.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s amazing. [00:27:10]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: But I think like look I got asked I got asked to speak at Joe Lovett’s event. Yes. [00:27:15]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Who’s friends tell me.

[TRANSITION]: Friends who [00:27:20] were.

Payman Langroudi: There. People over there.

Rhona Eskander: You didn’t have any friends? Tell me who you know.

Onkar: It’s all good. I [00:27:25] saw very good reviews for you, actually. Really?

[TRANSITION]: Who sent me all over Instagram?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Tell me.

[TRANSITION]: Instagram. [00:27:30] It’s all good.

Onkar: There’s a lot of good reviews.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. I mean obviously like for me, I have massive imposter [00:27:35] syndrome. So I find it really amazing that a lot of young dentists understand me as what I mean. [00:27:40] Because the thing is, is that I always found that a lot [00:27:45] of dentists my age and older troll me or like, don’t get me. So I find it so [00:27:50] amazing meeting these young dentists and even Payman said, when we started Mind Movers, so [00:27:55] many of the young dentists came up to him and it was it was really amazing for us to hear that, because we know that we’re making [00:28:00] an impact, bringing these conversations to the forefront. And I think the thing is, like, there [00:28:05] are the incredibly talented like George the Dentist. I’m not that dentist, [00:28:10] and I never pretend to be that dentist because my dentistry [00:28:15] is good and my dentist, my patients are at the forefront of my page. And I [00:28:20] think that’s when you really recognise. I had dinner at the Invisalign Live on Friday. This is going to [00:28:25] make both of you laugh, okay? And I sat next to a dentist. I’m not going to say. And I’d say he does pretty good clinical [00:28:30] work. Like he’s he’s up there. But he told me he got a two page message he showed [00:28:35] me because I was beside myself from one of the rubber dam crowd, [00:28:40] basically completely ripping him apart for like, his molar [00:28:45] and like, did you use this? Did you do what was your cavity [00:28:50] prep like? Why wasn’t this like, what are you doing? You shouldn’t where’s the rubber dam [00:28:55] picture? You know, I mean, I was like, oh my gosh, you know, people have that much time on their hands [00:29:00] when you’re at university. You know, like if he wants to put a before and after of his molar, let him the boy [00:29:05] put it.

Onkar: I think I would say it’s not that deep. But to some people it is that deep. And that’s when it comes to thinking [00:29:10] like, do you know what? Actually there’s more to life than teeth. Yeah. And I think but [00:29:15] for some people it’s the epicentre of their universe. Is that. And I again, [00:29:20] I think like this is why I wanted to separate work Instagrams and clinical Instagrams [00:29:25] because I’m like you, I think the reason why like going back to the convo of like you have [00:29:30] a lot of young dentists look up to you is because you keep it real on social. I always felt like you kept it real and I followed you since [00:29:35] I’ve been in dental school. But I think you keep it real and I don’t feel like when you’re on Insta you’re playing a fake [00:29:40] character. It’s actually Rohner talking to the camera. And that’s what I want to do. [00:29:45] And it’s like, students meet me now at uni when I’m teaching and, you know, dentists my age [00:29:50] and like you’re at events, they’re like, you’re like you are on Instagram. I’m not pretending to be someone like, I’m [00:29:55] just being me.

Rhona Eskander: Even cooler in real life. I’m just telling you now I’m just telling. But but I want to.

[TRANSITION]: I want to know the [00:30:00] first.

Payman Langroudi: Time you guys have met.

[TRANSITION]: Real life. Yeah. Oh, no. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Tell me one thing, though. Why did. [00:30:05] And I’d be interested to know why did you choose TikTok as your platform to blow up?

Onkar: I [00:30:10] you know, I always liked Insta, but TikTok happened by itself. I literally, honestly, [00:30:15] I posted a video one lunchtime. I put my phone down.

[TRANSITION]: Was it turkey?

Onkar: It was about, uh, [00:30:20] jaw trainers. Yeah, like those rubber things that you chew on. Yeah. I literally remember [00:30:25] making a video in lunchtime. I put my phone down for 20 minutes, I opened my phone and I was in a hospital job at this [00:30:30] point that had a no social media policy. So they were like, you can’t post, you can’t have TikTok’s, you can’t [00:30:35] have Instagram. There was something that happened the year before me in this, in this hospital, and I [00:30:40] was like, oh, I hope no one ever finds this TikTok page. And I put my trust it to be [00:30:45] that video that I filmed in a clinical room. Yeah, in the hospital. But no one was there. It [00:30:50] was just me in the room with the white wall. Yeah, but, you know, I’m wearing my NHS lanyard at this point.

Rhona Eskander: Did you get in trouble? [00:30:55]

Onkar: Well, 20 minutes later, I had 30,000 views. But what happened.

Rhona Eskander: At the university? The hospital.

Onkar: All the [00:31:00] dental nurses that work in the hospital found the video. They forward it to each other in the dental nurse group chat. And that hospital. [00:31:05] Um, nobody pulled me up. I actually went to the consultant and I was like, look, I do social [00:31:10] media. This has happened. Like, this is my phone. This is me. You can’t there’s no data anywhere. It’s just me in [00:31:15] the clinic room. And they were like, it is what it is. As long as you don’t breach rules and you’re not, they’re [00:31:20] not. But I was so nervous that as that video got like 8 million views [00:31:25] or something. And then that just snowballed. And I was like, oh God, I could do something with this. [00:31:30] As you know, as long as I don’t take everything to heart and every bad comment to heart, I could do something with this.

[TRANSITION]: I think [00:31:35] what’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: About TikTok that you probably hate the fact, right? Not [00:31:40] hate. But with TikTok you don’t need followers to get views, you know? Now you know. [00:31:45]

[TRANSITION]: Instagram’s.

Payman Langroudi: Turning that way too.

Rhona Eskander: So I think that Instagram TikTok is much better for [00:31:50] my mental health than Instagram is.

[TRANSITION]: Right?

Payman Langroudi: But what I’m saying is you’ve put in this ten years.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, no.

Payman Langroudi: Work into Instagram. [00:31:55]

[TRANSITION]: And and I can’t.

Rhona Eskander: Grow and on TikTok and grow in a year.

[TRANSITION]: Right. Okay. Perfectly.

Rhona Eskander: That’s [00:32:00] that’s why I love it. I’m like TikTok. Instagram is you know, Instagram is really annoying because Instagram [00:32:05] will favour those people that, um, have grown back in the day. So I have a friend [00:32:10] of mine, millions of followers, she posts I’m not joking on rotation, the three [00:32:15] same stories, the three thousands of likes and beat [00:32:20] millions of likes posted the same stuff. I wouldn’t get that because she grew it in 2012 [00:32:25] whenever Instagram started. You see what I mean?

[TRANSITION]: You grow it.

Rhona Eskander: Oh, I started Instagram in 2016. [00:32:30] 15, 16. Yeah. So you know.

[TRANSITION]: But TikTok is.

Payman Langroudi: The heroine [00:32:35] of, uh, social media. I mean, it’s.

[TRANSITION]: It’s.

Onkar: But there’s that there’s that theory, right, [00:32:40] that the new generation have a ten second attention span because they will swipe, swipe, swipe. And I [00:32:45] feel like it’s true, like we are so addicted to swiping that we actually don’t want to [00:32:50] pay attention to anything long enough. And then that’s why everyone’s now been diagnosed with certain neuro divergences, [00:32:55] because we’re all so addicted to a quick burst of dopamine, right? Which is also what I read [00:33:00] in a book recently, which is dopamine.

[TRANSITION]: It’s amazing. Yeah, yeah, such [00:33:05] a good.

Rhona Eskander: Animation.

Onkar: Dopamine nation is an.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing book, and.

Onkar: It talks about all of our [00:33:10] attention spans and how we just want instant gratification.

[TRANSITION]: It’s like you always want to be on a high.

Rhona Eskander: Always, always.

Onkar: And [00:33:15] it was like an incredible book.

[TRANSITION]: I mean, I’m.

Payman Langroudi: I’m in it for the dopamine.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: I’m [00:33:20] in it maybe 30 times a day. At the same time, we sit for two hours and talk [00:33:25] like this.

Onkar: I prefer this though.

[TRANSITION]: Like, I.

Rhona Eskander: Think, you know, it’s. So you won’t even believe this. [00:33:30] I went on this retreat called the Body Camp last week. Did you see.

[TRANSITION]: I saw that. How was.

Rhona Eskander: That? And it was absolutely incredible. [00:33:35] I recommend it to anyone and everyone. I was a bit dubious first because, like, what do we do? Just boot camp for like the whole day. [00:33:40] But what they did was it was so cleverly set up, you know, they had these like pillars of health [00:33:45] when we got there. You know, you get up at 6 a.m., okay, and they make you wear fancy dress [00:33:50] first thing in the morning, and you have to dance to an 80 song and you’re like, what the actual f is this? Yeah, exactly.

[TRANSITION]: Just [00:33:55] wait.

Rhona Eskander: I’ll tell you why in a second. And you had to do that every single day. And by day 4 [00:34:00] or 5, you’re actually having fun. You’re putting on your like mask and you’re like, woo! And then they [00:34:05] make you put your phones away until the afternoon if you want to take it. And you [00:34:10] get more points if you don’t touch your phone. So then you do four hours of exercise in the [00:34:15] morning. So you do like an hour and a half. Then you have breakfast, then you do another workout [00:34:20] and everything’s about like teams working together, all these kinds of things. And you meet really interesting [00:34:25] people. They also every single meal for every single day of that week. You [00:34:30] sit next to a new person every single day. So you’re always split up. So you know everybody [00:34:35] in the entire group. And then they did like mindfulness, gratitude, all that stuff. [00:34:40] They even made us write a letter to ourselves in the future. So it [00:34:45] would be me in six months being like I, it’s been six months since the body count and they give you like, structures, [00:34:50] and now they’re going to post them to us in six months. I can’t even remember what I wrote, right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Now you might say to me, like, what is [00:34:55] this up? But every single person who had stories trauma felt amazing [00:35:00] after that week and it was so basic, the principles, but we forget it. We [00:35:05] forget it. And you might say, what was that? The whole point of the dressing up? And you’re just like, oh fuck, is this [00:35:10] why they may take life so seriously? Man, I think it’s especially so when you’re there and like, they’re literally [00:35:15] making you wave around to like, ABBA or something. And this outfit 6:00 in the morning, like we wake up [00:35:20] so serious in the morning, you know, I mean, have a bit of fun first thing in the.

[TRANSITION]: Morning, I think.

Rhona Eskander: So it was really [00:35:25] interesting. But I spent guess what? My daily average was on my phone for that whole week.

Onkar: Probably like eight minutes, [00:35:30] 13 minutes. I love that, me, I love that 13 minutes.

Rhona Eskander: And you know what my best friend said [00:35:35] to me? That also is a therapist. That said, Rowan is definitely ADHD. And she said to me, she said to me, you’re actually [00:35:40] so present and so engaging when you ask people questions and their stories. Because guess what? [00:35:45] I had no distractions. I was genuinely interested in everything going on around me.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your screen time [00:35:50] now?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Is it.

Onkar: Back to a after.

[TRANSITION]: Their retreat? Yeah, I’m gonna look now.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Check. [00:35:55] Eight hours a day. What’s yours?

Onkar: I’m gonna check. Mine’s about.

Payman Langroudi: Five. Four. Let’s see. [00:36:00] I don’t know if you listen to a podcast, does it count that as screen?

Onkar: No, that’s not screen time. Unless you’re watching a podcast. Like a video podcast [00:36:05] like yesterday I was.

[TRANSITION]: That was so far today.

Onkar: Yeah. My average is my [00:36:10] average is about five and a half to four and a half depending on the day. If you’re filming content, [00:36:15] it’s like eight, ten hours a.

[TRANSITION]: Day, and then.

Rhona Eskander: You start engaging with the content because you have to do the likes [00:36:20] and the comments and, um, okay, I want you to tell me, though. So you rose to TikTok fame [00:36:25] quite quickly. Yes.

[TRANSITION]: And can we call it TikTok fame?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I really think it is. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: I [00:36:30] like.

Rhona Eskander: That. Like what is it, 23 million views on one video or is it 5 million, something like that. Ten, [00:36:35] 10 million combined.

[TRANSITION]: What’s it about?

Onkar: The Jaw trainer. Every every viral video I’ve done [00:36:40] has been on like something that I reckon like was was a good message behind it, you know. [00:36:45]

[TRANSITION]: So like one.

Rhona Eskander: That interests me the most, the most viral video I saw recently, which I want you to shed a light on, was about [00:36:50] Glamorising Dental School.

Onkar: Oh yeah, that went well.

Rhona Eskander: So let’s talk about that.

[TRANSITION]: Let’s talk.

Onkar: About it. [00:36:55]

Rhona Eskander: So tell me what you meant by that. Why people are how are people glamorising [00:37:00] dental school and why do you think that’s detrimental?

[TRANSITION]: I just think.

Onkar: Like I said it, because I was tired after [00:37:05] a long day of work and I was like, I look like shit. Like I’ve got tooth juice all over me. Like my [00:37:10] hair is a mess and I’m on Tik Tok and the first thing I see is like, come with me to place [00:37:15] a composite veneer at dental school. And they show this lovely view from guy’s hospital [00:37:20] example. Disclaimer it’s just cause it’s got the best view in London. And you know, [00:37:25] you then are seeing these lovely scrubs and beautiful white trainers and these polished individuals [00:37:30] and they make it out to be like they went to uni to do one plastic composite veneer and [00:37:35] they went to the library, got a coffee, sat in the sunshine in the park and went home. And the comments are [00:37:40] literally all dental school is adult art class. Dental school is so slang.

[TRANSITION]: Medical [00:37:45] school.

Onkar: Medical school is where it’s at. Fake doctors like I wish I [00:37:50] did dentistry and I’m like, you need to show what is. Actually when we [00:37:55] would go to a clinic, we’d have to be sitting there for seven hours drilling plastic teeth. We’d get our preps critiqued [00:38:00] by someone who was like, you know, the top of their game you [00:38:05] made to feel like and yet.

[TRANSITION]: Emotionally unstable.

Onkar: And then you feel like crap because [00:38:10] you’ve left a tiny bit of margin somewhere, or you’ve chipped the tooth next door on plastic teeth [00:38:15] that you can take out of a model. Like it’s not that deep. Like I had trauma from the way some [00:38:20] of those tutors would be like, you’ve damaged the tooth next door in real life, you’d get sued for that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, literally, [00:38:25] literally.

Onkar: 22 years old. Like, I’m I should be out having fun with [00:38:30] mates. I’m here drilling teeth at 4:00 on a Wednesday afternoon. You know, like, I [00:38:35] want to do this. Let’s be constructive. So for me, I, I just felt like it [00:38:40] was being glamorised. I think a lot of the as well, like I see a lot of American dental dental creators [00:38:45] and they dental school career is completely different. They do undergrad and they do dental school. Their [00:38:50] training is looks very rigorous. Yeah. But again like so glam they go [00:38:55] in and like lovely fig scrubs. They look good. Yeah. With me to the gym at five in the morning. Then I’ve got, I’ve [00:39:00] got dental.

[TRANSITION]: Lab juice.

Onkar: Green juice, I’ve got dental labs until nine in the morning and I’ve got three composite [00:39:05] veneer cases. I’m like, that isn’t my dental school.

[TRANSITION]: I literally did.

Onkar: Not have that. [00:39:10] You know, I don’t spend.

Payman Langroudi: Any time in America.

Onkar: No. I’ve been a couple of times obviously for holidays and stuff.

[TRANSITION]: But [00:39:15] dental school.

Payman Langroudi: Elective.

Onkar: Elective in Japan.

Rhona Eskander: Oh wow.

[TRANSITION]: How was that?

Onkar: I [00:39:20] loved it, I loved it, I.

[TRANSITION]: Loved Japan, I.

Onkar: Just wanted to do something again. Like, I’ve always been a bit of someone [00:39:25] who wants to go against the crowd and do something different. So all my mates did South America because I’m not [00:39:30] doing that. Let me do the most far away thing from South America I can do. So it was like to Japan and I loved it. Like [00:39:35] it was a complete culture shock. Like because it was so different to going to South America. I wanted [00:39:40] to go to New York initially because we had links with NYU and I was like, I could go to NYU any [00:39:45] time. Yeah, Japan. I’ll never get that link again after I leave uni. And it was incredible. Like [00:39:50] their culture, there is so little culture. Me like literally surgical [00:39:55] wisdom tooth at the end they bow in gratefulness to thank you after you’ve been butchered up. [00:40:00] They’re bowing in gratefulness.

[TRANSITION]: Because they’re.

Onkar: So polite.

[TRANSITION]: Like, but you know.

Rhona Eskander: Japan. So Japan. And [00:40:05] for me really fascinated me. I went there a couple of years ago with a girlfriend, and the culture [00:40:10] for me was so different. You feel that you’re in a different universe. But as Omkar said. The [00:40:15] respect they have for each other as human beings, whether it’s fake or not is unbelievable. [00:40:20] And you see, as a culture, for example, you ask people for directions, we’d ask [00:40:25] them on the tube. It’s very confusing. They’d get off the tube with you to direct you. And then I remember [00:40:30] this girl was walking to us and we were like, no, thank you, we need the toilet. She’s standing outside the toilet waiting for us because [00:40:35] the service that they want to give to one another is so ingrained in them. However, you cannot tip [00:40:40] because tipping is insulting for them. So if they accept a tip, it’s really insulting. And then I came [00:40:45] out of like Japan. And what was interesting is, is because they were so polite, you became [00:40:50] so polite. And then I literally was like, I’m an ass massive cunt. When I come [00:40:55] to London.

[TRANSITION]: I’m going to be polite.

Rhona Eskander: I’m going to walk people to the places. And then [00:41:00] as soon as I hit Heathrow Airport, the first Karen that I come across.

[TRANSITION]: Honestly, it’s.

Rhona Eskander: Like literally moving. [00:41:05] And I’m like baffling to me, like, no, do you know what I mean? And it’s really sad because it shows [00:41:10] you that when we’re kind to one another, it can be super contagious.

Onkar: I think I again, I [00:41:15] completely agree, like I did that that two weeks there, two and a half weeks I loved it. [00:41:20] I went, then went to Hong Kong on my way back home for like a four day stopover. Hong Kong was [00:41:25] like London like you literally. It’s like bish bash. Everyone’s moving around.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, me on my.

Onkar: Way out [00:41:30] of my way, you know? And I was like, I’ve come from this serenity and peacefulness in Japan. Like [00:41:35] their dental school was amazing. Like we went to the factories of like, you know, where they make GC, [00:41:40] like we saw everything.

Rhona Eskander: Do you think the work superior?

[TRANSITION]: Stunning.

Onkar: Like some of the best work I saw was in [00:41:45] Japan? Yeah, I was in awe. I was a fourth year dental student. Like, obviously I was in awe of everything, [00:41:50] you know, but for me, what struck the most was that I don’t understand Japanese, but [00:41:55] even the interactions between supervisors and students, supervisors [00:42:00] and postgrads was lovely. Like, maybe this is me. Maybe I don’t understand Japanese, I don’t [00:42:05] know, but I think, I think there’s a lot of toxicity in dental school. And I will say that to you. [00:42:10] I felt like that. I felt like it was just like a very competitive environment. Regardless [00:42:15] if people wanted to admit to the competitiveness, I sometimes felt like [00:42:20] I’ve never been the person to like, what’s the word like, get happy or like, [00:42:25] you know, enjoy other’s failures.

[TRANSITION]: Schadenfreude. Yeah. Schadenfreude. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Where [00:42:30] you get you get happiness out of. Yeah, yeah.

Onkar: I’m not into that. Like, why are you into that? Why are you revelling in someone’s sorrow? [00:42:35] Okay. Weird. Yeah. Why are people doing that? I don’t know, school. Like, did you hear, like, you know, [00:42:40] did you hear his root canal turned into like, a filling? Hahaha.

[TRANSITION]: Why?

Onkar: Why is that? That, [00:42:45] like, why do you care? Did you know that person?

Rhona Eskander: Dentists love that stuff. Dentists love doing that stuff.

Onkar: Did [00:42:50] that? Like, I just, you know, this person’s behind on their quotas. They might not graduate. It’s like, [00:42:55] why are you saying that with like, a smirk? Why are we talking about things like that? Like, and I [00:43:00] always say this like to to Dental friends especially like when we meet up, naturally the conversation [00:43:05] does turn to work and teeth. But like, can we talk about like also just talk about each other? [00:43:10] How are we? How is our family and friends? How’s things otherwise? But I think dental school has [00:43:15] opened my eyes a lot to like just things. But yeah, Japan was the opposite to that. [00:43:20]

Rhona Eskander: But as you rose to like TikTok fame, were your, um, colleagues, your dental colleagues [00:43:25] being a bit weird with you or a bit jealous?

[TRANSITION]: I had.

Payman Langroudi: A short agenda.

[TRANSITION]: On.

Onkar: Tiktok to just [00:43:30] be real. Like, just be completely real. And I think initially I wanted to be [00:43:35] like the dentist that debunked all the myths. But I think a lot of dentists do that quite well, I think. But what’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Agenda? I [00:43:40] mean, that’s the.

[TRANSITION]: Tactic.

Onkar: Agenda, that agenda.

Payman Langroudi: What do you want to get out of it?

[TRANSITION]: Patient the real no, [00:43:45] no.

Onkar: I don’t care for getting patients through social media that the agenda for me is [00:43:50] to be completely genuine and share the highs and the lows and show that actually the career [00:43:55] that we do is not always roses. And it can be crap days, and you need to take everything [00:44:00] with a pinch of salt, because not everyone’s going to leave and become a fully fledged bougie, private, happy dentist. [00:44:05]

Rhona Eskander: I don’t know, like I might have got it wrong, but I think for me you are a dentist that represents [00:44:10] someone that young dentist can relate to, giving the real stuff. You know, the real stuff, [00:44:15] like taking away the glamour. And on top of that, I think that he provides educational information [00:44:20] to patients as well. You know, like so he’s got two agendas here.

[TRANSITION]: In [00:44:25] it for you, the I.

Onkar: For me, like I just want to share the good with the bad. I get, I get I enjoy [00:44:30] the comments from people that I like. This has been so honest. Like when I hear when I read comments [00:44:35] that are like, this is yeah, I do feel like when people comment like, this is the realest I’ve ever seen [00:44:40] a healthcare individual your age talk about things. The fact you’re sharing your bad days [00:44:45] with us, like it makes me feel better about starting foundation training. I’ve just had a like, I’ve had messages like [00:44:50] I’ve just had a complaint today. The fact you spoke about that, is.

Payman Langroudi: There an element of you wish there was someone like [00:44:55] that to tell you how things are, warts and all? I think you were at that. Yeah.

Onkar: When [00:45:00] I was at foundation training, I felt quite lost. I did feel like I was like, do I chopped into the deep end a little bit, aren’t you? [00:45:05] And I felt like I there was times when I was like, what would happen [00:45:10] if I get complaint or things like that? And your mental health does kind of. Weird [00:45:15] places. So for me there, honestly, there is no agenda. It is just to be real and enjoy making [00:45:20] real content because you can make a lot of Dental content about, you know, turkey [00:45:25] teeth and all of those things. But it’s been done and it’s done well. And I think we all share the same [00:45:30] sentiment with those messages. But I think when you find the authentic content that works well, which is me putting [00:45:35] my phone down and just talking like a podcast to the camera, that’s been doing a lot better. [00:45:40] I always get Karens that hate me on there and like they.

[TRANSITION]: Think, do you care anymore? No.

Onkar: I [00:45:45] told you earlier, like I’ve stopped replying to trolls now, right?

[TRANSITION]: Like he was.

Rhona Eskander: Like he started actually giving and he’s not even being [00:45:50] polite to the trolls because he just feels like, why should I? Why should I? Why should they.

[TRANSITION]: Ask like that.

Payman Langroudi: Publicly? [00:45:55]

[TRANSITION]: Um, just an example. So I don’t.

Onkar: Ever privately DM trolls back because I think [00:46:00] that’s strange. But like, I’ve had people say like, you know, you’re fake dentist. [00:46:05] Government dentist. I’ve been like, been called like.

[TRANSITION]: That’s like my.

Onkar: Dentist. [00:46:10] Like the NHS is broken because of people like you, like you’re playing the system. And I’m like, what? Like. And then you [00:46:15] have people being like, you work in central London, you’re a private dentist. And I’m like, I’m majority NHS. [00:46:20] Like I’m a mixed associate. Like, what is this like? Your facts are all wrong. I had someone the other day, I literally [00:46:25] did a video about something, and someone the other day commented something completely random, which was funny of you to talk about [00:46:30] this when your practice charges X for a hygiene clean and I’m like, well, how have you like done [00:46:35] that and that as a statement and inferred that on a video it’s completely opposite. [00:46:40]

Payman Langroudi: Well, how do you feel about private dentists talking about the NHS? Well.

[TRANSITION]: I [00:46:45] did it with you.

Rhona Eskander: I came with you because I wrote out a message that I was going to send to you. Okay. And [00:46:50] because a couple of people, including like some [00:46:55] of the lovely dentists that you’re friends with, were like, I’m really upset at this video. No, no, no, no, no, these cannot [00:47:00] be genuine. As in like genuine nice friends. They were like, I feel like these dentists are talking about you. So sometimes I [00:47:05] get certain stuff. So I was one of and it was amazing because I was sat next to Krüppel, [00:47:10] you know, Krüppel from, um, sensou and Hanel at the Invisalign. And they literally turned around to [00:47:15] me because they are older than me. So they’re like obviously the generation above me. And they were like, like, thank [00:47:20] you so much for what you did for the media, because I was one of the first people [00:47:25] that wanted to shed a positive light on dentistry. Like I was working on my NHS [00:47:30] practice in Kensington. I even contacted a Payman and I was like, how do I get into media? And he was like, bless [00:47:35] her heart. He was like, I will introduce you to your channel because you channel was one of the only people doing at the time. [00:47:40] And then I, I did it myself, as in I was working opposite the Daily Mail [00:47:45] because it was High Street, Kensington.

Rhona Eskander: I started saying to journalists, I want to talk about this. I pitched the ideas [00:47:50] and they turned around to me and they said, no one talks about this. Like the stories about dentistry [00:47:55] are sensationalist butcher headlines. Or you know what, it’s not. And I convince [00:48:00] them to write about it in a positive light. And I started all of that. And I have a massive reputation with [00:48:05] the journalists because I spent that time grafting. I stood outside ITV this [00:48:10] morning and I pitched my ideas. I took Amanda Turner’s story [00:48:15] and, you know, and I treated her where she might have died because of the things that happened. [00:48:20] So then when they ask me to speak, and don’t get me wrong, I went on Piers Morgan’s show, [00:48:25] got scrutinised by Jeremy Kyle, who turned around and basically said, we paid for education. [00:48:30] You’re a private dentist. That’s not an easy position to be in. So when I have dentists being like, you have no right to [00:48:35] talk about the NHS, I feel it’s akin to somebody saying you’re not depressed anymore, [00:48:40] so you can’t talk about depression. But I’ve had depression, so I have worked on the NHS. [00:48:45] I hear what you’re saying, that, you know, I hear what you’re saying.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t have a problem with it. Yeah, I. [00:48:50]

Rhona Eskander: Hear what you’re saying. But I saw your message and.

[TRANSITION]: I post stuff. Yeah, I did.

Rhona Eskander: And I was going to ask you. I was [00:48:55] like, the anchor. And I was going to show you my point of view, like, yeah, if you want to talk about it, go approach the media. [00:49:00] And the thing is, is because why you’re not working in law anymore is [00:49:05] as valid in my opinion, because I did 11 years, I only stopped working on the 2019 [00:49:10] I.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, one year of NHS.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’m still allowed to talk about it. Why can’t I talk about [00:49:15] my my post?

Onkar: My post didn’t say people weren’t allowed to talk about it if they didn’t ever work [00:49:20] for it. And I think I know your story well enough to know that you’ve done the graph. Yeah, I [00:49:25] was inferring that I think it’s easy from an outside point of view to [00:49:30] talk about things when the journey has always been you’ve got time, [00:49:35] you have not had a UDA deadline, you’ve not got a boss breathing down your neck, being [00:49:40] like you’re a thousand days behind. I’m gonna penalise you. Yeah. So my sentiment [00:49:45] from that post was not directed at people like yourself who have done the graft. Yeah, I [00:49:50] just felt when I kept seeing things in the news and I’m like, why can’t [00:49:55] they just get like, none of us nor even like anyone? That’s hair like a random young [00:50:00] country village, you know what I mean? Like someone maybe, who’s their whole life [00:50:05] done that sort of dentistry. He was seeing the struggle and also been through that burnout [00:50:10] period. Because we’re lucky. We have social media. We have reach to an extent. You’ve done the graft, [00:50:15] you’ve camped outside and put up Daily Mail, but if there was someone you know, they [00:50:20] could approach you maybe doesn’t have that, you know what I mean? That doesn’t have that reach and is [00:50:25] just done NHS their whole life. That was my sentiment to bring someone like that onto [00:50:30] TV, to show that other side of the argument, someone who’s just fed up and tired [00:50:35] but maybe doesn’t have that platform to get there, do you know what I mean? And I would have loved to see them get like [00:50:40] a 45 year old Doctor Smith or anyone random. Yeah, I think we’re quite fortunate that we [00:50:45] have this following, um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, uh, Tony Kilcoyne.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Oh, yeah. [00:50:50] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Paul is the most private dentists in the country.

Rhona Eskander: I mean, he’s always a spokesperson.

Payman Langroudi: About the NHS all the time. [00:50:55] Yeah, okay. He’s very involved in BT and education this, that and the other. But [00:51:00] this question of Simon gets it as well. Simon gets on TV [00:51:05] and people say why are you talking about the NHS? You’re not an NHS dentist. It I just think I [00:51:10] can talk about vets. If I want to talk about I don’t have to be a vet to talk about.

[TRANSITION]: No, I think. [00:51:15]

Rhona Eskander: I think I think what you’re what you’re saying is, is that we need to basically have like a balanced view. [00:51:20] And I think that’s why panel discussions are so important. You know, because you could have somebody [00:51:25] like me or Simon or Anchor, but then like give a voice then to the other person that doesn’t [00:51:30] necessarily feel that they have a voice. That’s right.

[TRANSITION]: I do, and I think I wanted.

Rhona Eskander: And I think there is the, the [00:51:35] young dentist that make like meme accounts, like ripping apart like private dentists. That’s not me. And you [00:51:40] know, I get sent this being like, oh, well, they’re talking about you. And I’m like, I don’t even know who these people are. I am doing my job. I’m [00:51:45] helping the public.

Payman Langroudi: On the podcast, on my podcast, Dental Leaders who no one’s ever.

[TRANSITION]: Heard [00:51:50] of sometimes. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: On purpose.

[TRANSITION]: Because give them a platform or.

Payman Langroudi: Because they tell [00:51:55] a story that isn’t a traditionally interesting story. They’ve [00:52:00] been running a practice for ten years. No one’s ever heard of him. Yeah, those stories need to be told. [00:52:05] Just as much as I agree, the TikTok story just as much.

[TRANSITION]: As Prav.

Rhona Eskander: Said to me, surprised that Prav [00:52:10] is my business coach and he’s also Paimon’s business. Um, sorry. Podcast partner. Yeah. And [00:52:15] Prav said to me that one of the most fulfilling and Prav works with very high net worth dentists he’s worked [00:52:20] with. He said one of the most fulfilling stories that he has is of a guy that sold [00:52:25] like a one surgery practice, because he was able to spend time with his family [00:52:30] and like, I think he sold it for like 200 K or something like that, which isn’t the dream for a lot of people. [00:52:35] But he said it was the most fulfilling thing.

[TRANSITION]: It’s meant to him.

Rhona Eskander: It’s what success meant to him. And I think when I think [00:52:40] that that’s the really important thing, I get worried sometimes. The one thing that I think upsets me [00:52:45] and I try to do a video and it flopped on this as well, and I thought, you know what? I have to reflect on [00:52:50] this because maybe I’m being a dick. But I basically said that it was really unfair [00:52:55] for young dentists to get huge profiles and promote work [00:53:00] that they don’t know how to do, because I thought it was really irresponsible. So for example, like promote, [00:53:05] say, like for example, like promote like composite bonding or like veneers that [00:53:10] weren’t their work and they’re not necessarily taking the credit for it, but they’re they’re misleading [00:53:15] the patients and the patients. And then they build up a list of patients, and the patients walk through the [00:53:20] door, and they didn’t even know how to treat the patients.

[TRANSITION]: And they show.

Payman Langroudi: Other people’s cases. Yeah. And [00:53:25] unopposed.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, exactly. And they they like credits it. But what I’m trying to say is, is that.

[TRANSITION]: Inferred isn’t it.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:53:30] what I, what I found was there was a couple of dentists that got jobs, high [00:53:35] jobs and like Harley Street or whatever, these like dream jobs. And the bosses were telling me they were coming to me and be like, [00:53:40] they don’t even know how to do a veneer prep. And they have all these patients from social media that [00:53:45] need all this complex work, but they don’t even know how to do it. They don’t even know how to do the basics. [00:53:50] And I just think that sometimes your ego has let you get that and you do not do this, which is great [00:53:55] because as I said, know you’re really great at this, but I think it can be dangerous because [00:54:00] you’re putting yourself as a professional in a different in a difficult position.

[TRANSITION]: I just think.

Onkar: You [00:54:05] have to be real with yourself and be honest. Yeah. You know, like you all want to do great work [00:54:10] and like pretty work. Yeah. Don’t want to be doing smelly root canals. Let’s be real. [00:54:15] Yeah. And bashing silver fillings in you don’t. Yeah. You want white fillings. Nice teeth, lovely patients who respect [00:54:20] your opinion and your time. Yeah. That’s the goal with most of our jobs. And that is what we [00:54:25] find most dental colleagues enjoy. You know, I want my one hour check-up where I can actually talk to [00:54:30] you, not ten minutes, because it’s been booked in by my manager. Yeah. So on [00:54:35] the flip side of that argument, I completely agree because again, you see it time [00:54:40] to time where you’re on socials and this lovely bonding case has been done, but three weeks [00:54:45] later it’s chipped and someone like yourself is correcting it because the person that did it doesn’t understand how to manage someone’s bike. [00:54:50] You know, I think with me, like the whole social media thing, what I think is really [00:54:55] important is I remember when I had a first experience with like a really negative comment and I [00:55:00] messaged you, you probably don’t remember this, but I had someone on Instagram message me because [00:55:05] I was doing my one of my Max flex jobs. And I remember like at that time I’d started like doing a bit of Invisalign [00:55:10] and just experimenting with simple cosmetic dentistry. And I was really enjoying like simple Invisalign cases. [00:55:15] So I posted a little story. Someone messaged me from a like meme account. [00:55:20] Yeah, like a digital one.

[TRANSITION]: Like a.

Onkar: Username.

[TRANSITION]: 45222.

Onkar: Yeah, like a model from [00:55:25] Google Images as their thing. Yeah, I reverse image, I reverse image search it. And it was a model. It wasn’t then. [00:55:30] And um, it was like, you should remember this, this message word for word. [00:55:35] It was like, you should be ashamed of yourself promoting, um, Covid infection control [00:55:40] and surgical dentistry in your day job as a dental corps trainee, but doing [00:55:45] cosmetic dentistry and, uh, non-essential work in a pandemic [00:55:50] during the weekends, the GDC would not look favourably on this. I’m like, this is someone I know. This [00:55:55] is definitely.

[TRANSITION]: Someone I’ve.

Rhona Eskander: Had this in my.

Onkar: Life. This is someone in the circle, someone from somewhere. [00:56:00] So I was like, do I reply and be like, do I not reply, do I block? And then I got [00:56:05] another message which was like. And also they if they knew you were just the DCT [00:56:10] one, they would never come and see you on X. And then I was like, who is this? Why are you [00:56:15] saying? And I messaged Rhona and I remember this really clearly. I sent you a screenshot and you were like, [00:56:20] clearly you’re doing something right if you’ve got a hater. Yeah. And I was like, you know what, I’m going to channel that energy now because [00:56:25] I did nothing. I was really upset. I actually felt really worried. I was anxious at [00:56:30] work, going into work the next week in the practice, going to hospital jobs. It was [00:56:35] Covid like. Covid was a weird time for dentists, right? Like wearing an ffp3 to do bonding. [00:56:40] It seems crazy now, but back then, those helmet, those helmets we used to [00:56:45] wear because we don’t want to shave. And I’m like, jeez, like I had such awful. Comments. [00:56:50] They actually deactivate and stuff for a bit as well. And it was like always really, really bad because I struggled in [00:56:55] my second job with a lot of things in personal life and blah blah, where I just went off socials completely [00:57:00] for four months and like, screen time went down to like an hour.

[TRANSITION]: Did you feel better?

Onkar: Yeah, I [00:57:05] actually did, yeah. And I reactivated because I was on a night out with my mates and I think they wanted to tag me in [00:57:10] a story. And I was like, you can tag my doctor on, like, I don’t need to be back on my personal account. Yeah. [00:57:15] Um, but I reactivated and I was like, I don’t miss this. I didn’t I didn’t [00:57:20] like opening Instagram because, you know, when you get to like 27, 28, 29. Yeah. So [00:57:25] when you get to that late 20s stage ten years ago.

[TRANSITION]: You was like 25, [00:57:30] 15 for pay. Yeah.

Onkar: Are you scroll [00:57:35] and it’s like, if it’s not bloody teeth or a nice bonding case or someone’s got a nice job, it’s like engagement. [00:57:40] I bought a house, I’ve got a dog and I’m like, I don’t have that, that or yeah, yeah. And I was [00:57:45] like, this is making me feel worse about myself. I hate the job. I hate the job that I was in at that time. And I also hated [00:57:50] everyone on social media at that time. So I deactivated. It was the best thing I ever did.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:57:55] mean, and I guess, like in a way, you’ve channelled your own thing because you’ve brought realness and people [00:58:00] want to see realness. Um, Doctor Arum, who’s my root canal specialist, he absolutely hates [00:58:05] hates Instagram engagements, you know, when the photographer’s there and then [00:58:10] I’m so surprised the why is the photographer there?

[TRANSITION]: Like, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So he sent [00:58:15] me this, like, meme that basically was like saying about this, like about how [00:58:20] fake all of this stuff was. And the thing is, is I think we’ve got to remember that. And like the small designs [00:58:25] and everything, like, I’m not going to show my Dental clinical failures because I don’t want to scare patients. Right. But [00:58:30] if we were real, you know, we get them all the time. Like, like you’ve said many times, which has stuck [00:58:35] with me. Dentistry is a job where the work we can guarantee one thing it will fail [00:58:40] eventually, eventually fails. Yeah. You know, and that’s that, that that’s quite a scary thought, [00:58:45] you know, to know that nothing that you do actually stays permanently.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:58:50] what do you think is the reason that dentists kill themselves?

Onkar: Number [00:58:55] one. I’ve actually thought about this before. Um, number one, probably a high pressured environment. [00:59:00] That’s definitely number one. And number two is expectations from, [00:59:05] I think, expectations, whether it’s you on yourself so personal or whether it’s second [00:59:10] party. So patients, your nurse, your manager, your principal, whatever [00:59:15] that may be okay. Whether you’re a practice owner expectations on yourself. Number three, [00:59:20] I also think I think the number three would be when [00:59:25] you there’s always going to be a point, I think where dentists medical [00:59:30] whatever industry, you’re a high achiever. You’re always been a high achiever. Right. There’s going to be a point where you flop [00:59:35] some point. There’s always going to be a point. No one’s trajectory is always going to be like that. I personally think, yeah. [00:59:40] So I think when you there’s a point when this happens.

[TRANSITION]: In some cases.

Payman Langroudi: Specifically. [00:59:45] I mean, why not? Why not brain surgeons. High pressure to [00:59:50] brain surgeons will have high pressure.

[TRANSITION]: They do.

Onkar: They definitely do. The nature of the beast [00:59:55] with dentistry may also be the fact that it’s a litigious. And like so many complaints that.

[TRANSITION]: Even [01:00:00] medicine, by the way.

Payman Langroudi: They’re not killing. The thing is I [01:00:05] think maybe. What do you.

[TRANSITION]: Think? Also, the patient.

Rhona Eskander: Is awake all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: That that yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That [01:00:10] issue.

[TRANSITION]: Brain surgeon. They’re asleep.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah it’s a big difference. It’s a big difference. [01:00:15] You know when you’re saying high pressure I think. Yeah that you know I can say brain surgeon. More [01:00:20] pressure.

[TRANSITION]: Probably. Yeah definitely.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. But in a way a live patient. Yeah. [01:00:25] You’re constantly on tenterhooks. Yeah I know we get used to it and you know, on [01:00:30] an examination. Yeah. But every time you give an injection, you know how many times a day you [01:00:35] do that? Yeah. Every time you do anything.

Rhona Eskander: And I hate this and.

[TRANSITION]: I hate dentist. [01:00:40] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: A combination of that and the four walls. Yeah. You know, brain [01:00:45] surgeons in a hospital. Then it.

[TRANSITION]: Gets it gets.

Onkar: Monotonous, I think.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: When was your mental [01:00:50] health the worst 2022.

[TRANSITION]: Why?

Onkar: So I was working a [01:00:55] job that, like I personally didn’t want to do, to [01:01:00] be completely honest. But I did it because I had no other offers in the bag. So it was still [01:01:05] like another hospital job and it was just like horrific. I didn’t want to be there. I don’t think [01:01:10] they wanted me there. Like, I felt like I was really close with [01:01:15] my grandma and she had passed away like three weeks prior to no three weeks. She literally passed away [01:01:20] the day I started that job. So like, I was very close with her. She died on my birthday. So [01:01:25] it was like, yes, it was like I started that job 2nd of September that evening. The [01:01:30] next day was my birthday. I started this new job. I didn’t want to do that job anyway. That will happen in the back. [01:01:35] There was no I didn’t feel like there was any work. [01:01:40] Support, if I can say that like, I was given like a day off and they were like, have a [01:01:45] day off and come back on Monday and you can help in the general anaesthetic wisdom tooth list. And [01:01:50] I’m like, what? Like I’ve had this thing happen to me. I’m quite traumatised here. Like, you [01:01:55] know, I lost grandparents but I was 6 or 7 like not 27. You know, you you process things a lot [01:02:00] more when you’re older and, you know, almost I was her carer at that times. [01:02:05] You know, I was always there and then that was awful.

[TRANSITION]: I didn’t mean to.

Payman Langroudi: You like, I mean, how did you feel? [01:02:10]

[TRANSITION]: I just, you know, I.

Onkar: Think like for me being when I was like, obviously [01:02:15] now 27 and I think you see like almost the senior of, of, of, [01:02:20] of the family or whatever it may be and they’re reduced to this little person in the hospital bed. I hadn’t [01:02:25] seen that before. I’d worked hospital jobs, I’d done maths facts. Also. I’d read all these things. But when it’s [01:02:30] it’s very easy to detach at work when you know you’re the person giving [01:02:35] the care. There is that element of detachment. When it’s family and you’re helpless, it’s very different, [01:02:40] you know? And when it’s end of life care, that’s also quite stressful to go and see. And I think, [01:02:45] you know, regardless of of what we may do at work, it is stressful. But then, you [01:02:50] know, you come and see this and your home situation is now just as stressful. There [01:02:55] was no sort of, uh, way for me to have a break anywhere. It was awful both times, [01:03:00] you know, everywhere. And I was it was just a lot going on, and I felt like I was in that job. I got [01:03:05] a lot of sort of, you know, energy like that was just not supportive [01:03:10] of, of me at that time. I told them, you know, when I started that job, like, [01:03:15] I want to maybe do medicine, go the whole hog, become a head and neck surgeon, [01:03:20] or just do all surgery and implants and become a specialist. I’m in that kind of unit, right? [01:03:25] No support. Like the first thing I got told was like, we don’t like London graduates.

[TRANSITION]: Like, really? [01:03:30]

Onkar: Yeah. They’re like, why have you come from London to this hospital? And I like, you know, I was like, what? [01:03:35] Like it’s a 20 minute drive from my house. Like, I ranked this job quite high. And [01:03:40] then there’s all these things of politics, politics.

Rhona Eskander: Hospitals, politics.

Payman Langroudi: Then what how did you did. [01:03:45]

[TRANSITION]: You, um, endeavour change? What were your.

Payman Langroudi: Symptoms?

Onkar: So definitely was a very, a very, very anxious [01:03:50] boy. Um, more so than normal baseline anxiety with me from [01:03:55] I always talked about this recently on TikTok, like it was my fifth year of dental school. I first felt anxious, [01:04:00] like I would always have anxiety for certain things. Like at uni when you’ve got a difficult procedure, [01:04:05] like you feel like butterflies, but never like the room is closing in on me. So it was in my fifth [01:04:10] year of dental school. I know, like we literally had a couple of exams for end of years [01:04:15] pending and it was all like DFT recruitment process and there was a lot going on on my plate. [01:04:20] And it was a random day, a random day in December, I was at home revising for exams, literally [01:04:25] went for a haircut and the barber’s chair. You can’t escape, right? You’re tied up. He’s cutting my hair and [01:04:30] the room just started closing and I was going black and I was like, I couldn’t breathe. And [01:04:35] I was like, tell my barber I was like, and let’s get up.

[TRANSITION]: Panic attack, panic attack.

Onkar: Like, I’d never had that before. So it was, [01:04:40] and I’ve read a lot of I love psychology. That was another thing I always was interested in was psychiatry. So that was going to be [01:04:45] my medicine route. That or like something you recognise.

Payman Langroudi: It for what it was at the time.

Rhona Eskander: So [01:04:50] that’s.

[TRANSITION]: Progressive. I thought it was.

Onkar: A hypo because I hadn’t eaten all day. So initially I was like, am I just having a hypo? Like [01:04:55] it was a panic attack, sweating, grey room closing.

[TRANSITION]: In when you.

Rhona Eskander: Left the barber. [01:05:00]

[TRANSITION]: What happened?

Onkar: I went outside to get fresh air and then I went back in the chair because he was like, you look [01:05:05] great. Well, yeah. He was like, go outside, get some fresh air. He gave me some chocolates and he was like, is he a sugar levels? I [01:05:10] don’t know, he’s like, you’re the dental student. I was like, I don’t know. And then I went out, went back in. [01:05:15] He started climbing again, happened again and started climbing again. Again. I was like, I need to just get through this [01:05:20] appointment. Yeah. So had two weeks off for Christmas, which was like, [01:05:25] good. Went back to uni. Rooms started closing in. I’m like, what is? [01:05:30] Why is this happening? I can’t identify why I’m anxious. I was detached, I felt [01:05:35] like I was observing myself from an outsider’s body, like I was floating and I was watching myself [01:05:40] do procedures and I would literally be like, I don’t understand this. I was [01:05:45] getting sweaty. I remember like, palpitations. I’m a very chill [01:05:50] person prior to this. Yeah, like resting heart rate, 48 beats per minute. Like I’m not an athlete, but I was. [01:05:55] I’m always super chill. Nothing makes me nervous. I was so on edge, [01:06:00] I was I couldn’t go to the I honestly, looking back on it now, I was bad, I [01:06:05] couldn’t go to the supermarket. I couldn’t go and walk in the aisles because they would start closing in. [01:06:10] And, um, I remember going in my fifth year to get coffee on [01:06:15] a Saturday at my flat. I lived in Catford in Lewisham because it was between both hospitals [01:06:20] for kings and guys, and my flatmate had gone and I was home alone at the flat and I went to get [01:06:25] lunch and a coffee.

Onkar: I was in subway buying a sandwich. I had to leave. I couldn’t do the order. I actually had to stop [01:06:30] him doing the order. I was like, I need to go. I left and I was like, I was like, I don’t know [01:06:35] what to do. Like, I tried everything, self-help books. I tried taking magnesium supplements, [01:06:40] I tried running more, and I was like, nothing is happening. Like nothing is [01:06:45] helping me. I went to the GP. Gp and the GP [01:06:50] was like, you don’t strike me as anxious. I’m like, why are you saying that as a GP? Like why [01:06:55] that’s not helpful. They basically were like, do you want talking therapy? What [01:07:00] do you think you actually want? I’m like, I just want answers, to be honest. Because, you know, I think there’s [01:07:05] people will deep dive into your childhood and be like, you know, Freudian theory, like, tell me where you [01:07:10] had a bad time. You know, I’m like, I can’t really acknowledge any of that from the [01:07:15] five years of like, the uni experience. I don’t know why that happened in my uni up [01:07:20] to then. It was fine. My A-levels didn’t shake me that much. Yeah, I managed to get [01:07:25] through it and I put it down to exam stress and life stress and uncertainty of not knowing where [01:07:30] I was going to end up having about 20 exams in the space of like three months with the finals of dental [01:07:35] school and just putting a lot of pressure on myself because uni [01:07:40] in that fifth year again, I had like I started, it was actually like I started YouTube. [01:07:45]

Onkar: I remember I tried to start YouTube because YouTube was really hot then, right? So I tried to start a vlogging channel [01:07:50] again. I did one video where I did one video. It was up for 12 hours. [01:07:55] Someone in my year messaged me and was like, just to let you know, there’s been [01:08:00] talk about your video. Um, one of the nurses has seen it, so you might want to put the video down. [01:08:05] Um, next day I get called in and like again, email being like the subject title is [01:08:10] your progression in dental school. And I’m like, I’ve got four months to graduate. Yeah. So January [01:08:15] is the email. We graduated and we finished dental school in May, graduate in June. So [01:08:20] that was another thing in January, in that same awful time, I’ve got this email from the dean of dental school. [01:08:25] Then they were like, you can’t do that. You’re not allowed to do. And that was another thing that made me do [01:08:30] this YouTube Glamorising Dental School on TikTok, because everyone is now a dental school [01:08:35] influencer and they post the unis they go to, you can see the scrubs they wear, you can see the sign of what uni they’re [01:08:40] at. Why was it such a big issue for me to say I go to Guy’s Hospital or back then? [01:08:45]

[TRANSITION]: Back then it was it was less.

Payman Langroudi: Less normal.

Onkar: 2019. It was, you know.

[TRANSITION]: But I don’t think.

Rhona Eskander: They are still [01:08:50] allowed and like again, like I think that’s, that’s that’s the conflict I’ve always had with dental school because. [01:08:55] I, as I said to you, I was good at English literature, philosophy and [01:09:00] drama. I was the main my outlet. I still go to the theatre every [01:09:05] single month because guess what? Acting for me, I want to start improv this year. I [01:09:10] miss acting, so social media was my outlet because it was my creative spark. [01:09:15] And then you go to dental school, you can’t do this part where I get it. We need to be professionals. [01:09:20] We need to be professionals, I get it, but for me, like, there is just like, can we not be human? [01:09:25] But why can we not be humans?

Onkar: Why can’t I wear white trainers though I’m wearing smart trousers. Why can’t I wear white trainers? [01:09:30] Like what? Why do I need to wear black black shoes with buckles on them? Like [01:09:35] I get it, I get it completely, but also it doesn’t affect my ability to be nice to my patients. [01:09:40] That is another scrap. I had a lot with dental school. I was like, why are you telling me that I can’t?

Rhona Eskander: I’m pretty [01:09:45] sure in uni they also told us we’re not allowed to have visible tattoos.

[TRANSITION]: We have allowed not allowed tattoos.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Visible [01:09:50] tattoos.

Onkar: Not allowed tattoos. Not like piercings. The boys can’t have, like, you know, beards. Beards. [01:09:55] And I was like, this is weird. This is really weird. Like, I don’t get it, you know? And I’m quite an expressive [01:10:00] person.

Payman Langroudi: There is a line.

Rhona Eskander: I think, listen, what.

[TRANSITION]: Would be what would [01:10:05] be your red.

Rhona Eskander: Line? I think right at the end of the day, if you are being treated [01:10:10] by a professional person. Yeah. And a professional person is someone [01:10:15] that you trust, there is a degree of you somewhat judging the way that they [01:10:20] look and what they present. Okay. Would you agree?

Onkar: I think. I [01:10:25] don’t know, because for me it.

[TRANSITION]: Would be a red line.

Payman Langroudi: And if you went to visit a site.

[TRANSITION]: For example, I saw [01:10:30] a surgeon, or if.

Rhona Eskander: You see that Tik Tok video of that girl that had a devil’s tattoo [01:10:35] here, and the devil’s tattoo had like, blood. And I think there was like animals dying. [01:10:40] She was covered in tattoos and piercings and she was like, I went to TK Maxx. Tk Maxx rejected [01:10:45] me. And the reason why TK Maxx rejected was clearly because of my tattoos. And this is like a judgement. [01:10:50] Yeah, but like you look a bit scary. Like if you’re going to be like attending people [01:10:55] like customers are going to be affected.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, I’m going to tell you something that I did tell.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, God.

Payman Langroudi: Regarding tattoos. [01:11:00] Yeah. What did. But but so if someone would come for an interview and enlighten [01:11:05] with a tattoo that you couldn’t easily hide, you wouldn’t. I would question [01:11:10] their judgement.

Onkar: On that tattoo. Yeah, or just a general.

[TRANSITION]: General. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Because [01:11:15] if you’re putting a tattoo somewhere where you can’t hide it, like here. Yeah. On your own.

[TRANSITION]: I’d love to [01:11:20] like, love it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But now they’re much more normalised. But, you know, maybe ten.

Rhona Eskander: Years ago. [01:11:25]

Payman Langroudi: Longer. 15 years ago. Yeah. If I could see tattoos that you couldn’t hide at all. Impossible [01:11:30] to hide.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Side of your neck. Yeah. I would question that.

[TRANSITION]: Person if you were.

Rhona Eskander: If [01:11:35] you saw a psychiatrist and they were covered in tattoos from [01:11:40] like here. Yes. To like here, for example. And piercing. How would you feel. [01:11:45]

Onkar: Like I think the question to hit you back with is, do they make me feel good? Do they answer my clinical [01:11:50] questions? Do I feel.

[TRANSITION]: Safe? You can’t judge at all.

Onkar: No not really. I don’t really care.

Payman Langroudi: My position on that. I’m [01:11:55] like, you know that it’s everywhere. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Like if I look at my piercings.

Rhona Eskander: And tattoos.

[TRANSITION]: You know, [01:12:00] I mean, if I.

Onkar: Go to someone for like regardless of their job role, if someone’s doing a good job and they’re taking [01:12:05] care of their clients or patients or whatever, I’m not really. My opinion is minuscule. [01:12:10] You know, I okay.

Rhona Eskander: I agree completely, but also I, I totally agree with you on the thing of like appearance. [01:12:15] And if you come to my clinic, it was funny I.

[TRANSITION]: Central.

Rhona Eskander: I mean there’s Prav told you.

[TRANSITION]: I’ve [01:12:20] seen you.

Rhona Eskander: The thing is, is like I’ve been called in. People want to do television [01:12:25] programs about my clinic because they were like, oh my God, like, you are literally lgbq. [01:12:30]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, like body.

Rhona Eskander: Sizes, because I have always judged every [01:12:35] single one of my staff based on their merit and based on like how [01:12:40] they treat patients. And it works really well because my team is so, so diverse. [01:12:45] Now, the one thing that I would say is, is that I think there’s an important [01:12:50] question to be posed for presentation. Right. And what I mean by that is somebody that’s at least [01:12:55] clean, because I think that that’s a form of self-love and self-care. Like, you know, that you [01:13:00] showered and you brushed your hair, for example. I think those things do matter because it also shows how [01:13:05] the person is feeling about themselves and their own kind of sign of like self-respect, [01:13:10] their mental state of mind. Can they look after other people? You see what I mean? That’s what I think, that I draw the [01:13:15] line if I.

[TRANSITION]: Don’t know, personal hygiene. Yeah.

Onkar: Yeah, I think that’s pretty important.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:13:20]

Onkar: I think so.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it even comes up in marketing, right, when we’re doing these pictures. Yeah. The [01:13:25] last evolution we said let’s not have pretty people. Yeah. Let’s have [01:13:30] people who are just let’s have normal people. People real not even have pretty smiles. Just have the estimates. Right. [01:13:35] And let’s let’s have the.

Onkar: Man I love it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s have tattoos. [01:13:40] Yeah. When we went into it. Yeah, we, we we [01:13:45] lost our bottle and we thought what’s our distributor in Kuwait going to say.

Onkar: Yeah you have to [01:13:50] take cultural. No I completely agree.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah I think Gen Z are really challenging the norms, [01:13:55] which is great. But how did you get out of this mental state of the panic attacks?

Onkar: I think for me, like, [01:14:00] I’ll be honest, when I started, when I finished dental school and I was away from that high again, that [01:14:05] pressure situation of constant exams, they fizzled away themselves. So you.

Rhona Eskander: Didn’t go on medication.

Onkar: Didn’t [01:14:10] go on meds. I looked up what I was doing, which was behavioural, a lot [01:14:15] of caffeine. Like I drink like 4 or 5, six coffees a day. I’m pretty bad for it. Yeah. And I was still doing that in uni. [01:14:20] Fizzy drinks containing caffeine, all of these things that were like stimulant to try and, uh, think what is making [01:14:25] me feel worse. So cut out caffeine, cut out all of that. Try to be try to be a lot better with things. Took [01:14:30] up a lot more exercise, which doesn’t work for everyone. Yeah, I read a lot of anxiety [01:14:35] psychology books as well. Like a lot of subtle mind mind books to feel better. And I started ashwagandha. [01:14:40] Ashwagandha.

[TRANSITION]: I’ve heard that really helps.

Onkar: Which is I’ve been on and off that for about [01:14:45] four years now. What is.

[TRANSITION]: It? Actually?

Onkar: It’s the natural supplement, which.

[TRANSITION]: Basically massive.

Rhona Eskander: In our [01:14:50] Vedic.

[TRANSITION]: Practice.

Onkar: It reduces if I’m mistaking me, if I’m incorrect, [01:14:55] it reduces your stress response to little stressors. So like your baseline and your it’s like [01:15:00] essentially keeping you at a good baseline where you don’t have all those cortisol spikes. You’re [01:15:05] not meant to be. It’s a no a no tropic, a no tropic, whatever you call it, you don’t you don’t want to be on it forever. [01:15:10] You need to take breaks. So like I’m this is not clinical advice, but like, you know, a month off, month [01:15:15] on blah, blah, blah, you know, and that really helped me along with magnesium good sleep. But then they bloody [01:15:20] started again in 2022 when I started that awful job. And then that was a. Again, [01:15:25] like, oh my God. Like what? Where do we go from here? You know, like driving and having panic attacks [01:15:30] and I’ve never been medicated. I think I’d like I maybe [01:15:35] would I like a formal diagnosis of something I think it’d be. Does it help you have this discussion earlier? Do you feel [01:15:40] more diagnoses help people? Sometimes I think they do.

Rhona Eskander: The ADHD thing did help me because I think the like [01:15:45] erratic nurse and everything that I’ve been experiencing. But the problem is I’ve not worked [01:15:50] out. I found it empowering to know that, but I’ve not worked out and I’m not in a position where I want to take medication. [01:15:55] So I think that I am finding it really hard to manage. [01:16:00] But I spend thousands on my mental health, like literally thousands. And obviously [01:16:05] doing this podcast in a way has also helped because even by connecting with people and understanding [01:16:10] or connected is super helpful. Anchor I could talk for hours. You have [01:16:15] been amazing at this podcast, like thank you. And what does the future hold? [01:16:20] So where would you like to be in five years?

Onkar: I think five years is probably maybe finding [01:16:25] the agenda, finding the why is really important. I think I still feel like I probably [01:16:30] don’t know my why completely right. And I think that’s natural. I think we need to take that [01:16:35] idea of everyone knows their why straight away, away. That’s not true. Okay, maybe not for me. [01:16:40] I like to continue just being happy in work, whether that involves teeth or not. Who knows? Yeah, [01:16:45] but I want to just develop to a point where. Where I may be really rose [01:16:50] tinted. I go into work every day and I’m looking forward to it. Do you know what I mean? And you’re not at the [01:16:55] minute. There’s times when I’m not know if I’m being real. There’s times I’m not. I know 35 patients a day where I’m like ten [01:17:00] minutes up. So I’m not looking forward to that. I’ve got stuck at work at 8:00 until doing notes. Yeah, [01:17:05] I want to just be happy. And I want to make sure that regardless [01:17:10] of whatever’s going on in personal life, that career is always, and I think sounds again, really idealistic. [01:17:15] Some people are lucky enough to have, you know, their job, be their break time, go to work. You can [01:17:20] kind of zone out. You love that. I’d like to get there in five years. I’m hoping they’re hoping that that kind of [01:17:25] comes to fruition. So yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on.

[TRANSITION]: My thanks so much for seeing me. [01:17:30] Thank you.