Nilesh Parmar: And it was for me. It was just a realisation that you’ve focussed so much on career [00:00:05] and the things. When I talk to a lot of younger people and I mentor now as well, one [00:00:10] of the things I say is look, don’t lose sight of what the end goal is and what you want from your life. Sit down and write [00:00:15] it down. What do you want from your life? It’s so easy to get tied up in the kind of Instagram realities [00:00:20] that I want. Private jets and I want to go this. I want to do car tours and all this sort of stuff. [00:00:25] But then you can only do that for so long. You need to develop those deep, meaningful [00:00:30] connections. You can’t just sacrifice everything for that. [00:00:35] You need to have family. You need to put effort into relationships. And that was something that I didn’t learn [00:00:40] until probably in the last five years.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:50] is mind movers moving the conversation [00:00:55] forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. Your [00:01:00] hosts Rhona Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:01:05] gives me great pleasure to welcome Nils Palmer onto [00:01:10] Mind Movers. We’ve had Nilesh on Dental Leaders. Um, but fresh [00:01:15] off his interview with Steven Bartlett. Nilesh, thanks for coming in. Firstly, [00:01:20] pleasure and it’s much more intimate when you’re actually in the same room. Um. [00:01:25] My idea. Yeah, your. When someone, when someone looks at your life [00:01:30] from the outside. On paper, it does look delicious. Racing [00:01:35] cars, multiple degrees, practice owner, implantologists, [00:01:40] all of that. But we’re going to go now is what you’re struggling [00:01:45] with right now.

Nilesh Parmar: Thank you for the introduction. That’s very nice. And it’s a really good question. I love the [00:01:50] way you just go straight into it, you know. Um, what am I struggling with at the moment? You know, the [00:01:55] thing is the the life you see online, I think we all know that isn’t [00:02:00] always the reality, right? It’s the highlights. It’s not everything else that goes on behind closed doors. And I think [00:02:05] we almost have this issue of not sharing, kind of like the bad stuff that happens for me. Touch [00:02:10] wood career has been good. You know what I do I find very easy. [00:02:15] I don’t find it difficult. It doesn’t stress me out. I don’t find it challenging. If now that I’m, [00:02:20] I hate to say it, 42 going on 43 in a few months, 42.

Payman Langroudi: Going on 17. [00:02:25]

Nilesh Parmar: Acting like a 17 year old is Asian. Don’t raisin Asian, [00:02:30] don’t race. Exactly, I like that. Yeah, I knew I’d get some one liners from this is [00:02:35] is that. Now. I started doing my will recently. [00:02:40] And it actually, it’s really strange to see your life [00:02:45] down on paper. Like every asset, everything you have, just down on paper, it’s it’s quite [00:02:50] a humbling experience. And then when the solicitor who you’re doing it with says, [00:02:55] okay, so, um, have you got a wife? And you go, no. He goes, okay, um, [00:03:00] I’ve got a girlfriend. And you go, no, he goes, children, partner? No. Ex-wife. No. Do you [00:03:05] have anyone to leave this stuff to? And I said, yeah, my sisters and my nephew. And he goes, okay. He goes, oh, that’s really [00:03:10] unusual. And I go, why? He goes, someone in your position who’s amassed wealth [00:03:15] usually has a partner, usually has someone, and you don’t have anyone. And that [00:03:20] kind of hit me. That really, really hit me. I was like, shit. All these years I’ve been working my ass off. [00:03:25] And it was. And it wasn’t the pursuit of happiness. It was the happiness I got from the pursuit. [00:03:30] It was just the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. And then you sit down and you think, if I met [00:03:35] someone now, and if I got married, let’s say in 3 or 4 years time and [00:03:40] we had kids, would I see my grandkids, like, would I be alive? Or [00:03:45] would I be alive to see my grandkids go to school or do like their first fun run or something? [00:03:50] And I think that was something that I struggled with. It was that realisation of, you’ve done so [00:03:55] much, but also you’ve done so little, like, what’s your legacy? And that’s something that kept popping up [00:04:00] in my head is what’s your legacy?

Rhona Eskander: I think a couple of things from what you’ve just said really resonate in a [00:04:05] way, and I think it’s quite refreshing for a man to be speaking about these things. The reason why I say this, [00:04:10] Payman and I talk about this often, is that women often talk about the biological clock, so you often [00:04:15] hear them panicking about children, recognising that they have a finite time. But what I’ve come to recognise [00:04:20] is, is that men also don’t necessarily want to be really old dads, which is pretty much what you’re saying. [00:04:25] I want children, but I also want to potentially live to see my grandchildren. And I think that’s [00:04:30] something that we don’t hear men talk about often enough, and we just assume, you know, if you’re a good looking, successful [00:04:35] guy who’s 50, you’re going to go for a 35 year old woman. That’s fine. But as you said, when your kid’s ten, [00:04:40] you’re 60 and your kid’s 20, you’re 70. And sure, we’re living a lot longer, etc., [00:04:45] etc. but I think, you know, there is something to be said for that one pattern, though, I [00:04:50] think that I’ve noticed is that the older you get, the more picky that you become. Because [00:04:55] also I feel that your wisdom allows you to become more picky about partners. [00:05:00] I was having dinner with a friend yesterday, and we were having a little bit of a catch up about our university friends. [00:05:05]

Rhona Eskander: They got married when they were 2728, and surely ten years later [00:05:10] the problem starts showing up the cracks. You know, I’m like, how’s this couple doing? Oh [00:05:15] well, he works all the time and he’s never in the house and he’s been coming home at 3 a.m. and she’s just looking after the kids. [00:05:20] And when I see them together in the kitchen, it’s not even as if they like each other anymore. And then there’s another [00:05:25] couple on the verge of divorce. Because the conflict in the Middle East, [00:05:30] she’s Jewish, she’s Muslim, has driven them apart. Yeah. And you know what I think to myself, I think, you know, [00:05:35] there’s two sides to every story. I think you got young Payman. You got married young as well. So be interesting to hear your point [00:05:40] of view. But I think there’s two sides to this, right? Because if you have waited [00:05:45] till later on, which includes me and you, to settle down, you [00:05:50] develop language and wisdom that may help your future relationship. You know, [00:05:55] and I think that that’s a healthy thing because then you know how to relate to them. Make sure that you’re [00:06:00] not triggering them. You have the language and the communication basically around this kind of stuff. So [00:06:05] I think, you know, it can work both ways. You know.

Nilesh Parmar: Conversely, I think you also [00:06:10] become very set in your ways and you become very much a creature of habit, especially men. I think we’re very [00:06:15] much like, right, I do this, and especially for me, I’m so regimented in everything I do, I find [00:06:20] great happiness in getting up and knowing that my day is planned. I’ve got this, this, this and this, and in my head I’ll have timings [00:06:25] for certain things, not exact timings, but timings. So I’ve never lived with [00:06:30] a woman, I’ve never lived with a girlfriend or anything like that I’ve lived with. Why? Um, it’s a good [00:06:35] question. For a long time, especially when I was studying, I used to [00:06:40] see my girlfriend at the weekends. It’d be like Friday night, Saturday night. [00:06:45] And then she was gone, and then I’d reboot. And on a Monday I was back to work. So I had all these [00:06:50] work things that I wanted to do, all these things that I wanted to achieve, and the girlfriend just seemed like [00:06:55] a weekend sort of thing. I wasn’t willing to commit the weekdays to her, and it was only [00:07:00] recently, or perhaps in the last few years, that I start understanding that, okay, you need a relationship, you need [00:07:05] to have time. And as Stephen Bartlett says, you want deep, meaningful connections [00:07:10] with people. That’s the key thing. If you can develop deep, meaningful connections with people, everything else comes easily. [00:07:15] And when you’re so set in your ways, I mean, the only woman I live with is my sister, and we used to drive [00:07:20] each other well. She used to drive me mad, but generally we used to get along quite well. But when you’ve not lived with [00:07:25] someone, you don’t get to know them as well, because life isn’t going out and going on holidays [00:07:30] and going out for dinners and things like that. It’s that core familiarity you get when you live with [00:07:35] someone. And, and I think a lot of the guys that I know, I don’t know any single guys. [00:07:40] I’m the only one. I don’t know really.

Rhona Eskander: What within the Dental community or wider circle [00:07:45] or.

Nilesh Parmar: Both in my close friend circle. So in my friend circle and I had my 20 year [00:07:50] reunion from my first degree, and we went round and there was about 35 of us who turned up. We [00:07:55] went round the room and I was expecting everyone to be fat and ugly and dishevelled. I was really disappointed. They all [00:08:00] looked really good, actually. And um, and they everyone was like married kid, married [00:08:05] kid, married kid married kid second married, second married third kid. And everyone who went [00:08:10] round and it was for me, it was just a realisation that you focussed so much [00:08:15] on career and the things. When I talk to a lot of younger people and [00:08:20] I mentor now as well, one of the things I say is look, don’t lose sight of what the end goal is or what you want from [00:08:25] your life. Sit down and write it down. What do you want from your life? It’s so easy to get tied up in the [00:08:30] kind of Instagram realities that I want. Private jets and I want to go this. I want to do car tours [00:08:35] and all this sort of stuff. But then you can only do that for so long. You need to develop [00:08:40] those deep, meaningful connections. You can’t just sacrifice everything for [00:08:45] that. You need to have family. You need to put effort into relationships. And [00:08:50] that’s something that I didn’t learn until probably in the last five years.

Rhona Eskander: I think I’m going to challenge you on that as well, because [00:08:55] again, it’s a two fold situation. People that you don’t know who they are and [00:09:00] then choose to get married young, sure, they can form a connection, but then I would argue that perhaps they find [00:09:05] it even more difficult to pursue their dreams that set them up for the life that they can have [00:09:10] and provide for their family. Like you’re unlikely to say you marry someone young. You’ve grown together. [00:09:15] Sure, it worked out for a few years, but then you’ve got a mortgage, kids, alimony, etc. and [00:09:20] you have this dream of like leaving your job in the city and pursuing a Start-Up. You can’t really do that. [00:09:25] Does that make sense? So I think we have to make conscientious choices. Come on. Like what you’re [00:09:30] going to say to me that somebody that’s the sole provider, he’s got a wife that became a housewife, has [00:09:35] two children, say that he wants to leave the marriage because he’s unhappy, and then he’s still got [00:09:40] to pay for the house, the divorce, etc., etc. he’s not going to suddenly quit his job with stable [00:09:45] income to, you know, do a start up.

Payman Langroudi: It’s less likely to take risk.

Rhona Eskander: It’s less likely to take risks. [00:09:50] Now, I think you’re right. Like, have you both seen the deathbed thing? You know, about the [00:09:55] nurse that said the biggest, um, death. Do you know it? Yeah. So for those [00:10:00] that don’t know it, you know, basically a nurse to come out, she wrote a book on it. So I really recommend [00:10:05] it about the five, um, deathbed things that people said that they wished they had achieved in their life. [00:10:10] One big factor, as you said, is that they’d wish they’d spend more time with their loved ones. So you can interpret [00:10:15] that in any way that you consider. I think that that is really [00:10:20] important to nourish relationships. But I don’t think your only relationship in life is your [00:10:25] relationship, that you still have deep, meaningful connections with your family, for example. And [00:10:30] I think hindsight I mean, Payman chime in, please, because how old were you when you got married? 31. [00:10:35] Yeah. So how do you feel like on the other side? Because I’d say that’s fairly young, you know, to get married. [00:10:40] And do you feel because obviously as you got older and wiser, like, how do you feel your life changed, [00:10:45] how you navigated a relationship? What do you what’s your kind of perception? [00:10:50]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it depends on the particular relationship, right? So [00:10:55] you have a particular relationship. But I’m interested in in what you’re saying about girlfriends. [00:11:00] Mm. I’ve seen lots of girlfriends of yours over the years. Over [00:11:05] the years. Over the.

Rhona Eskander: Years.

Nilesh Parmar: Like over the years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:11:10] And so when and each of these relationships has failed before you’ve [00:11:15] even lived together. Yeah. So when you look back on it, do you see a pattern of [00:11:20] self-sabotage? Does it get to a certain point and you get scared and and push him [00:11:25] away, or are you attracting the wrong kind of woman, or are you attracted.

Rhona Eskander: To the wrong person.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of patterns [00:11:30] are you seeing in the so failure of those relationships?

Nilesh Parmar: It’s really interesting. So, um, the last relationship I was in, [00:11:35] she sat me down one day and she said, look, I don’t feel we’re making. I’m not getting to know the real [00:11:40] you. We’re not having that connection. And I was like, what do you mean? How did you feel? Yeah, I [00:11:45] felt a bit prosecuted, almost. I felt as if I was. But did you feel.

Rhona Eskander: A connection with [00:11:50] her?

Nilesh Parmar: I did, yeah, yeah, I thought I did, but. So she, um, [00:11:55] suggested doing something called the Landmark Forum, I don’t know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been on it.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:12:00] some dodgy stuff about it too.

Nilesh Parmar: So it’s very American. They they really push [00:12:05] it. They’re very, very pushy. Yeah. Um, but you get [00:12:10] from it what you want to get from it, right? You don’t take it too seriously the first time I did it, and I’ve done it twice. [00:12:15] I walked out on the last day. I just had enough. You were like, done? Yeah. I was like, I’m done. And I’ve [00:12:20] got a very logical brain. Not a very emotional brain, very, very. It’s really hard to break [00:12:25] through to me for that sort of stuff. I’m like one plus one is two. I don’t deal with, you know, [00:12:30] non absolutes. And then, um, I did it and I almost had a revelation about [00:12:35] so many things, and it made me understand how. And coming from an Asian background where your parents [00:12:40] were, my dad, who was is a dentist, an orthodontist, did six days a week [00:12:45] working as and you guys know, doing six days a week, 40 years is [00:12:50] intense right in in what we do. And his main rhetoric [00:12:55] was because they were born very he was born very, very poor. And he would tell me amazing [00:13:00] stories about how they would save up to go to the cinema on a Friday and the ad, um, [00:13:05] seven brothers and sisters, they would save up, they’d buy one chicken. I used to get a piece [00:13:10] and one bottle of Coke and that would be shared amongst everyone. So they they grew up with nothing. And [00:13:15] his thing was just to work very, very hard. And it was just working hard, sheer, sheer, [00:13:20] um, willpower to be successful and to put money and to put the kids through education, etc. it’s all our [00:13:25] parents ever wanted. So I grew up just seeing hard work. I didn’t grow up [00:13:30] seeing deep, meaningful connections. I grew up just seeing work. And that’s what I emulated right when [00:13:35] I when I grew up, that’s what I did. I did what my dad did, just worked my ass off. And it was only after [00:13:40] I did that course. Then I started having conversations with people that I never had before. [00:13:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So explain in that course they they encourage you to phone someone that you’ve wronged.

Nilesh Parmar: Yeah. They’ll [00:13:50] encourage you to phone someone who’s wrong.

Rhona Eskander: They do that in like AA and all those addictions stuff. Like you have to kind of like [00:13:55] repent, like the way you’ve treated people. So I had to agree to that. I had a very.

Payman Langroudi: Strange conversation with my brother. But [00:14:00] go ahead. Who did you call?

Nilesh Parmar: I phoned up an ex-girlfriend.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, okay. Well, [00:14:05] you felt that you’d wronged her.

Nilesh Parmar: So I phoned up an ex girlfriend that I had wronged and apologised, [00:14:10] etc., etc..

Rhona Eskander: And did she take that?

Nilesh Parmar: She was fine. She was. I mean, it was a long, long time ago, but what was [00:14:15] it?

Payman Langroudi: What was the thing you’d wronged her with? If you if you’re happy to talk about it?

Nilesh Parmar: Basically, she was very much in love and [00:14:20] I just thought, I’ve had enough. Now I don’t want to be in a relationship anymore. I want to be single again. I want to [00:14:25] have some fun and be a lad about town. So I just ended the relationship when she was madly in [00:14:30] love, like madly, madly, because.

Rhona Eskander: She just she felt blindsided.

Nilesh Parmar: Almost totally blindsided. It’s like having [00:14:35] the best day of your life. And the next day somebody saying no, but just pulling all of that from under you. And that’s exactly what I did. And it was a really shit thing [00:14:40] to do. But I didn’t understand. For me, it was like, okay, done, delete the number. I’m finished. It’s out of sight, [00:14:45] out of mind. And you didn’t realise that there are repercussions when you’re in a relationship with someone and you do things, [00:14:50] there’s repercussions onto their life as well. And whatever you do, even after the relationship, [00:14:55] there can be repercussions on their life as well. Once you imprint on each other, you [00:15:00] are almost connected for quite a long time.

Rhona Eskander: Do you believe in karma?

Nilesh Parmar: Yeah, yeah, very much so.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:15:05] I feel because I feel like you’re talking about karma basically, in a way.

Payman Langroudi: But what what do you believe about karma? You. I [00:15:10] bet you do, right? I bet you I.

Rhona Eskander: Mean, I have a real innate sense of wrong and right [00:15:15] in a real sense of consciousness. And I often wonder, because I grew up in a my father’s side [00:15:20] of the family is extremely Christian like, extremely like Coptic Christians are basically like Greek [00:15:25] Orthodox. They’re very religious. And because they’re the minority of Christians in the Middle East, [00:15:30] they take it very seriously. And my father really wasn’t like that. And my mom’s Catholic [00:15:35] and my my father did like the blasphemous thing by marrying a Catholic when he was a Coptic Christian. [00:15:40] But my grandmother, like, made me feel like this. Like I’m going to go to hell. Like for wearing, like, revealing [00:15:45] clothes for like, not like. And I went to a Catholic primary school. So I feel like this [00:15:50] innate sense of wrong and right, like, did you ever have that thing, a kid where you, like, tell a white lie [00:15:55] or you wouldn’t do something, and then you felt like you’d go to hell? I don’t know, like I’ve had that really. Like [00:16:00] I really have that, like innate sense.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a lot of guilt in religion, but how does that [00:16:05] relate to karma?

Rhona Eskander: Because then I thought that if I wrong, somebody would come back to me tenfold. Yeah. So I [00:16:10] think that that’s what makes me think about karma, as I often think about if I’m impacting [00:16:15] somebody’s life in a negative way, it’s going to come back at me tenfold. So every [00:16:20] decision and often like people describe me as being a bit of a pushover. I’m very emotional, [00:16:25] sensitive. You know, this and I think, yeah, okay, I might be a pushover sometimes, but [00:16:30] my genuine thing is, is like, if I do respond with kindness and genuine [00:16:35] kindness, I do believe it comes back to me in another way rather than responding with like, aggression and [00:16:40] hate. And has that happened over time? I think that over time, the kindness has [00:16:45] enabled me to forgive more easily. And I think that forgiveness is a lot more powerful than people think, [00:16:50] because forgiveness allows you to move on with your life. You know, I don’t forget, but I forgive. [00:16:55] That’s what I say. I’ll be like, cool, they did this to me, I forgive them. This is their own shit that’s going [00:17:00] on. But I won’t forget. Therefore, I won’t really trust them anymore. But I just move on from it, you [00:17:05] know?

Payman Langroudi: So what do you. What’s your understanding of karma?

Nilesh Parmar: So I was always brought up with the good [00:17:10] from my dad. A good sense of right and wrong. Right. You treat people well, you do things as they should be done. [00:17:15] And you try and be. You try and do the right thing as a man should do, right? But sometimes [00:17:20] we always steer from. We always walk away from the path now and then it always come back. We walk away from the path. [00:17:25] And karma for me was just if you’re a good person, good things will happen to you. It’s very simple. It’s very black [00:17:30] and white. But sometimes it’s also that self awareness because you might be [00:17:35] doing something and you don’t realise how much you’re hurting someone. Yeah, and you’re doing it without even thinking about [00:17:40] it. And for, for me, after I did landmark, the conversations [00:17:45] I had with a girlfriend at the time became very, very different in my eyes. We connected [00:17:50] a lot more and we were having much more, deeper conversations. Not just where are we going, what [00:17:55] we’re going to eat, what we’re doing here. And, you know, just just, um, surface level, you know, you have like level one, two, [00:18:00] three, four, whatever. So we were more dotting around three and four as opposed to one and two. [00:18:05] And I’d been seeing this, this individual for, you know, 6 to 9 months. [00:18:10]

Nilesh Parmar: And only after I’d done landmark were we having conversations that I never knew so many of these things [00:18:15] about her. And then I started revealing things about me. And I’m quite private about my vulnerable [00:18:20] conversations. And you’re and especially with the girlfriend who you don’t, you have that [00:18:25] kind of old fashioned Indian mentality where the man has to be the man, right? You don’t want to give, you don’t want to be vulnerable [00:18:30] in front of your partner. But then it all just started to flow out. And I remember one night, [00:18:35] I think we must have spoken for 4 or 5 hours about everything and [00:18:40] everything. So literally that person knows everything about me and things that I don’t [00:18:45] think I’ve ever told anyone. And that was that kind of idea of deep, meaningful connection. I mean, we broke up in [00:18:50] the end, which was a bit ironic anyway, but that that kind of maybe I scared her off, but that [00:18:55] that idea of having that connection, you felt so much closer to that person because a, [00:19:00] the level of trust just goes up to another level, because you’ve told them all of these things about you that you’ve never told [00:19:05] anyone, you know. And that was one thing that I always struggled with.

Payman Langroudi: But so is that what you’re saying? Are you saying [00:19:10] the pattern of relationship breakdown in the past has been that you haven’t shown all of yourself? Definitely. [00:19:15] To your your girlfriend?

Nilesh Parmar: Yeah. You’re always hold something back. You’d always hold. [00:19:20] What do you.

Payman Langroudi: Think that comes from?

Nilesh Parmar: Um, a lot of it comes from, I would say, being bullied [00:19:25] as a kid. I think being made to feel as if you weren’t good enough when loads of [00:19:30] loads of bullying. When I was a child and I said I had a stammer and I was quite short and fat, and [00:19:35] my mum really liked me having like a big afro kind of haircut. So, um, so the kids used [00:19:40] to call me mushroom because I had like a big headphone, a bit like that, and I didn’t realise people would call me mushroom [00:19:45] and chant mushroom to me. And I was like, why mushroom? Some Indian thing? And it’s only the teacher said, okay, [00:19:50] they’re calling you mushroom. And I was like, why? And he goes, because of your hair. And I was like, oh, that’s really not nice. Um, [00:19:55] and I think you because of that, you became quite closed off. So as a child, I [00:20:00] remember I’d come home from school where the other kids were playing football and stuff outside the South End. This was [00:20:05] in South End. And were there not.

Payman Langroudi: Many Asians in South End back then?

Nilesh Parmar: There were in my class there was one other brown guy. [00:20:10] And then I would get. I remember I used to get a little Cadbury’s [00:20:15] chocolate buttons, little mini thing, packet of crisps and a little mini can of like [00:20:20] Coke, because go to my room and I’d watch TV like I wouldn’t go outside. And then I was playing computer. I was very introverted [00:20:25] as a child, so much so that I became very shy around women. [00:20:30] Um, the more attractive the woman, the more shy I got and the more attractive the woman, the more my stomach came out. [00:20:35] And then at sixth form, they used because I went to a boys school at sixth form. That’s when you had girls [00:20:40] come in, and I was sat next to one of the most gorgeous at the time, all the most gorgeous [00:20:45] girls. I literally just was paralysed, I couldn’t talk, I found it so difficult and this girl was lovely. She’d have [00:20:50] a conversation with me. She must have thought I was some stupid kid that had a speech impediment because I was just [00:20:55] like, uh, literally couldn’t talk to her. And when you have, there’s different types [00:21:00] of stigma. But the stigma I had, there was certain words you can’t say, and you change [00:21:05] the phrasing of the sentence, so you change the word. But the usually [00:21:10] that word doesn’t always make sense. So you would say things and they’ll sound [00:21:15] really weird to it, and that would get the more stressed I got, the worse it would get. [00:21:20] And then my gag reflex would kick in as well. So you’re almost like a nervous wreck at one. And [00:21:25] when I got into university, it just disappeared. Well, overnight. Why did.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:21:30] think dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Give you reinvented himself in university?

Rhona Eskander: Dentistry give you confidence? [00:21:35]

Nilesh Parmar: Both do you both right. And getting into dental school gave me confidence because I’m so hard. I [00:21:40] never got in. I got no offers, nothing. I got in through clearing. Yeah. My parents hid all the failure letters [00:21:45] from me. It was all like, shoved down the back of the sofa. He really got it. And I don’t think it’s gonna happen. [00:21:50] I was so strange. Nobody’s read to me.

[TRANSITION]: What’s going on? Yeah.

Nilesh Parmar: So I got in through clearing and, [00:21:55] um. And then turned out first day of uni, and it just disappeared. Because you’re right, you just. It’s [00:22:00] a new start. You reinvent yourself. And that I’d [00:22:05] like to say that was nice. And then it became nil. It was very too different.

Payman Langroudi: I remember clearly in Cardiff [00:22:10] on my first night in Cardiff, being this other person than the person I [00:22:15] was two nights before. As a sixth former, a lot of people reinvented themselves. I’m actually telling [00:22:20] my son to leave London for this same reason in case there’s an evolution. Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I mean, [00:22:25] I think like it completely depends. Like some people I remember very clearly, like, first of all, I had no interest [00:22:30] in the dentists themselves because as soon as I saw them I was like, these are not my people. I [00:22:35] naturally love people in the creative and the arts. I did English, philosophy, [00:22:40] chemistry and biology, so I naturally gravitated towards people that did like very [00:22:45] woo woo type subjects, you know, really analysing human behaviour. So I applied to the halls, [00:22:50] they called it the Harry Potter halls. It was called Devonshire Halls. I remember it really hard to get into, [00:22:55] and it was all the boarding school lot that the that were there and I almost I was done with North London [00:23:00] because, you know, it was like north London. I was like done with Highgate UK’s boys, done with all that, like, you know, [00:23:05] all the Jews, the Arabs, the Chinese. I was like, I want to go like completely opposite and [00:23:10] go into something like white boarding school, that Harry Potter type territory. And that was the kind [00:23:15] of experience that I had. And Dental school for me was very closed off. It was very [00:23:20] much like Dental people hung out with Dental, people dated Dental, people did everything, and I just hated [00:23:25] that cliquey ness of it. I just hated it. I had no interest, you know, I wanted to be around [00:23:30] diversity. I think that was really important. But what I was trying to say to the point that you were saying about people almost [00:23:35] reinventing themselves, there were a few people that came to university that had gone to school with [00:23:40] other people, and they were like, she’s nothing like that. She’s reinvented herself. But after two years, her true character came out [00:23:45] anyway. Not necessarily bad, but say she was a bit of a geek, for example, like the geekiness came [00:23:50] out after two years. So I think it’s not necessarily about reinventing yourself, it’s either about finding [00:23:55] yourself. But I think if you try too hard to pretend to be someone you’re not, it’s going to it’s not authentic, [00:24:00] but it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Someone sometimes it’s someone you are. But you couldn’t be be at school. At school, [00:24:05] sometimes it’s there.

Nilesh Parmar: Or if you’re at school and you’re the cool kid, right? You don’t need to reinvent [00:24:10] yourself when you come to university. Yeah, yeah, there’s that too. Don’t have that social pressure if you’re at school [00:24:15] and you’re the awkward fat kid that people wouldn’t remember, you’re in the [00:24:20] room, right? Then you you do want to read because you want to be something. For [00:24:25] me. I always want to be something called relevance, right? I want it to be relevant. If I came into a room, I wanted people [00:24:30] to think, that’s nice. He’s he’s relevant. You know, that was always a thing. Always had that insecurity [00:24:35] about just fading away and not being important.

Rhona Eskander: So do you think. [00:24:40] And I’m just going to throw it out there for you. Do you think that perhaps your overcompensation [00:24:45] for success and legacy was perhaps a childhood trauma because you weren’t fit, you didn’t [00:24:50] fit in to the school, in the schools, etc.? So the ability to really prove [00:24:55] that you were incredible, which you are, you’ve left a real mark on the industry was, [00:25:00] you know, also a mask for your childhood trauma and worth, as it were. And I’m just [00:25:05] going to analyse the situation and, and on top of, on top of that. [00:25:10] Okay. And.

Payman Langroudi: Psychology.

Rhona Eskander: And then I need to pay.

Nilesh Parmar: You like an hourly rate. [00:25:15]

Rhona Eskander: And then on top of that, you also, on some level [00:25:20] have not been emotionally available for a very long time and you think you’ve [00:25:25] been available, but there’s been a part of you that’s been like, unresolved and that’s why the relationships [00:25:30] have failed. So you just said there. Welcome to my Ted talk.

Nilesh Parmar: That’s fantastic. We can just go home now.

[TRANSITION]: Just [00:25:35] complete it.

Nilesh Parmar: That is that is so true. It was [00:25:40] it was. You take the emotion out of the equation. You take emotion out of the equation. You focus [00:25:45] on the in the black and the white. And then you can make things all right. What’s tangible. You can do this, you can [00:25:50] do that whatever it is. And yeah, I was closed off. And I’m sure if any of my ex-girlfriends [00:25:55] are listening to this, they’re all probably thinking, that’s so true.

[TRANSITION]: I knew he was like this.

Nilesh Parmar: And [00:26:00] I think it was only and I think the other thing was, is that and also [00:26:05] the after lockdown, I decided to do some more media work, right, to do some more TV, [00:26:10] radio, etc. that I hadn’t done before. And I started to do it. And the only people who are really doing it was you [00:26:15] and Mila. You’re probably much the only two who did a lot of TV and media work, and I was like, I quite like that. I’d quite like to do [00:26:20] that. So I started doing some and then the Bartlett gig came up and a few other gigs came [00:26:25] up and I was like, okay. And then I think I got to that stage. I was like, you know what? I think I’m I’ve [00:26:30] reached my I’ve reached this level of success that I want, like, I’m happy with. Yeah, I [00:26:35] don’t want more.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. So true.

Nilesh Parmar: And it was materialistic possessions. I was like, if [00:26:40] I bought another Ferrari right. Would it make any difference? I don’t have time to drive [00:26:45] the ones I have. If I bought another watch or another.

[TRANSITION]: Or another practice. Yeah. Yeah.

Nilesh Parmar: It doesn’t make [00:26:50] a difference. And it was, it was, it was, you know, a lot of the revelations when I was researching the Steven Bartlett thing [00:26:55] and when he was talking to billionaires, etc., and you know, how much is enough [00:27:00] and you have that Pavlovian need. You want food, shelter, accommodation, right? When you have [00:27:05] that, everything else is a positive. Everything else is just on top. And there’s one thing he said, he goes, do [00:27:10] you think a billionaire is happier when he when he changes in his 80 foot yacht [00:27:15] for 100 foot yacht, right. It doesn’t make any difference, right? If you go from earning two [00:27:20] grand to earning 60 grand, that’s a big difference. But if you go from earning 1 [00:27:25] million to earning 2 million, is it really going to make much of a difference to what you do in the morning? No, [00:27:30] does not make that much difference. So now that I feel as if the pressure is [00:27:35] off me in terms of the having to prove yourself right now that I don’t feel that’s [00:27:40] there anymore, that’s now where I’m like, okay, right, let’s concentrate on relationships, let’s concentrate on my friends and [00:27:45] become so much closer to some of my closer friends or my inner circle [00:27:50] than I ever have, you know, because I don’t have that pressure of having to prove myself anymore because I [00:27:55] am who I am now. And the people that are, they love me. They love me for who I am. Whereas before [00:28:00] I felt as if I had to be successful in order to get any attention, order to matter. When [00:28:05] I walked into a room where I don’t feel that pressure anymore. But you could only do that by going through the journey. [00:28:10] If I hadn’t gone through that journey, then I’d still be that kid with the stammer.

Rhona Eskander: But [00:28:15] that’s the thing. That’s why I think sometimes that we’re so hard on ourselves about the things that we should [00:28:20] and shouldn’t have done. And I’m like, I’m similar to you in a way, because like, should I have done this earlier? [00:28:25] Why didn’t I do it? And I was the same as you. I was like, when I reached this amount of followers, [00:28:30] when I reached, and I still really bad at that. And like when I do an ITV gig, a [00:28:35] makeover program, this, this, this. And I think deep down it was like maybe my I will [00:28:40] be seen and my worth will be enough. That’s pretty much why I think I was doing that. If I really if [00:28:45] I really think about it, obviously, you know, there’s the altruistic side, I wanted to help people, etc. [00:28:50] but then I also thought that it would constantly having these goals would make me feel. And then like you said, you get it. [00:28:55] I have my practice in Chelsea, expanded my team. I’ve completed media. Do you know what I mean? [00:29:00] Like what more. And I think that’s when you have to go on this inward journey. My I have a I have [00:29:05] a coach and he’s amazing. And he showed me two mountains and he said, there’s one mountain that people climb, right? And [00:29:10] they think that those things would make them happy. So on the way to the top, it’s all the materialistic [00:29:15] things, all the external stuff that we think about, and then we reach the top and we’re like, it’s actually not that [00:29:20] fucking great up here.

Rhona Eskander: It’s not that great up here. So what we do is we then start on a second [00:29:25] mountain, and the second mountain is all about the internal stuff, and that’s somewhat more challenging. And [00:29:30] I feel like it’s important. What I do want to ask you is, do you think that because I’ve [00:29:35] known you for a long time, the less you know, you helped me when I was like a nobody dentist. You know, you took your time out [00:29:40] because, you know, I was a very ambitious, you know, young dentist. And I’m always grateful for those times you take, [00:29:45] you know, to meet me for coffee or, you know, try to guide me through different things. There’s [00:29:50] been a change. I feel like you’re definitely on a different journey from, like, that man that I spoke to, [00:29:55] like seven years ago or whatever. Do you think that’s also because people have been having more [00:30:00] conversations, like, now we have access to these conversations. You know, for example, Bartlett talks [00:30:05] about this stuff all the time, podcasts in general. You’ve got Louis. How’s that? All these different people, do [00:30:10] you think that? It has been. That has been a change, particularly within the male circuit [00:30:15] of men talking about their emotions and their relationships and their struggles.

Nilesh Parmar: The before [00:30:20] you know, when we first started talking, men [00:30:25] didn’t show vulnerability. They did and [00:30:30] our fathers didn’t. Um, and the men that I looked up to, they [00:30:35] didn’t show vulnerability. They’re very macho, macho men. And we always thought that if you’re vulnerable, then, you know, [00:30:40] you’re a little bit, you know, you’re a bit of a wet blanket or whatever. And now you [00:30:45] have so many successful men, successful not only in a career perspective, but [00:30:50] in a relationship perspective, family, men, etc., etc. if you do show vulnerability. And [00:30:55] I think that has been a big shift, right? And when I look at my [00:31:00] social media, I cringe when I look at my social media like five, six, seven years ago. So bad. But when [00:31:05] you look at things now, there’s so many more men sharing things or being vulnerable [00:31:10] and sharing intimate things in their lives and saying, look, I have a weak spot. This [00:31:15] is my weak spot, right? This is an area for me that I’m not good at. This is something that I struggle [00:31:20] with, right? And they’re willing to share that with people. You never had that before. And it’s [00:31:25] those kind of trailblazing men who said it’s okay. And you remember that the [00:31:30] thing on this clothing brand that said, boys get sad too?

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Why do.

Rhona Eskander: I feel [00:31:35] like I know.

[TRANSITION]: That?

Nilesh Parmar: So that was a big movement, basically. Um, I don’t remember the guy. [00:31:40] It became quite popular and that was resonated with me because [00:31:45] as a man, if you were going to cry, right, if you were getting really upset about something, what do you do? You’d. For me, [00:31:50] I’d almost leave the room, go to the bathroom, have a cry and come back and be like, hey, yeah, I’m fine, let’s do this. [00:31:55] Whereas now I don’t think there’s anything wrong. So I’ve, I was thinking, have I did I ever cry in front [00:32:00] of a girlfriend? Like that for me is a big sense of vulnerability of course. And [00:32:05] yeah, I have, but only probably the last in the last three, three years or so. Would [00:32:10] I even entertain? Yeah. Because before you would never do that. And you are right. There’s been [00:32:15] there’s been a paradigm shift in men who can now be vulnerable and say, look, this [00:32:20] is an emotive subject for me. I can talk about it and I can show that emotion. And I think you [00:32:25] are right. As people like Bartlett, etc., who have pushed that agenda forward for us, but the whole boys get [00:32:30] sad. Two thing I think was a really powerful movement. And now we know it’s Men’s Health Awareness Month. And going [00:32:35] back to some of the things I’ve said, especially on some of the like, Asian Man podcasts. So I did [00:32:40] one which was aimed at young Asian male professionals who have an intense [00:32:45] pressure to be successful, to do this, to do that, to do that.

Rhona Eskander: And similar to Middle Eastern. [00:32:50]

Nilesh Parmar: Similar to Middle Eastern. Yeah. And um, one of the the things that we spoke about was [00:32:55] that mental health amongst young or South Asian males [00:33:00] is really around suicide rates for men are so much higher than women. Of course [00:33:05] we know, and my age is the peak age for men to commit suicide. And amongst South [00:33:10] Asian males, it’s even higher than anyone else. And it’s because they put so much pressure on themselves [00:33:15] to be something right that when they can’t achieve it because life [00:33:20] is tough, life is hard, right? We know that we’ve all been very fortunate and very lucky to be in the position that we are, [00:33:25] and we’ve all had help, right? We’ve all had a good education and we’ve all been [00:33:30] able to eat when we needed to eat. We’ve all had, you know, a roof over our heads. But for those people who don’t quite make [00:33:35] it in their eyes, a lot of them do choose to take their own lives. And in this country, we don’t [00:33:40] really cater for mental health as well. It was only recently did I consider going to therapy, and there’s a very good friend of [00:33:45] mine who has been having therapy and we’ve been discussing it, and I was like, maybe that’s [00:33:50] something I would consider. And I have done a few sessions and it has been really, really interesting just to learn about [00:33:55] yourself because you spend your life learning about what we do, learning about the head, the neck, the mouth, [00:34:00] bone pathology, everything but your own self. I never really knew myself [00:34:05] and that was something that I’m learning now.

Rhona Eskander: I spend thousands [00:34:10] and thousands of pounds on my inner self when Payman. [00:34:15] When I first approached Payman about this mental health podcast, he was like absolute rubbish. No one’s going to listen [00:34:20] to it. And then I re-approached him. Yes, don’t give me that look incorrect. And um, and uh. [00:34:25]

[TRANSITION]: And uh, incorrect information.

Rhona Eskander: And then you know what he really saw? That was something. [00:34:30] And I think particularly within the Dental arena, like mental health is rife. But I also feel like people don’t [00:34:35] have the awareness to know they’re going through something. And I think when I really think about it, I think I [00:34:40] started having mental health stuff since I was like 11. I had been in and out of therapy since I was like 21, [00:34:45] I would say, and I had a really crappy therapist for years, but I was like, is this what therapy [00:34:50] is? And how does that make you feel? I don’t know, you tell me.

[TRANSITION]: How it makes.

Rhona Eskander: Me feel that way. And [00:34:55] then it wasn’t until I found my current therapist who we had on this podcast, Ella, who also spoke at [00:35:00] his event, the most recent one who I introduced him to and I think like half the Dental arena [00:35:05] now use her just because, like she’s so brilliant. And having a good therapist is almost like having a good dentist. [00:35:10] Like you’re like, you get me? You explain everything and it’s so great and you know, your brain [00:35:15] is like, it’s a muscle, right? As in, like if you are exercising it [00:35:20] in the way you can impact the output. So I think it’s been one [00:35:25] of the most beneficial things. But what I have noticed, I have an Asian friend. And her brother [00:35:30] wanted to go to therapy, and she’d completely shamed him for it because [00:35:35] it was not. Not in a way that she loved her brother, but she was like, you’re wasting your money. And [00:35:40] how can you know like this? How can you have therapy? There’s nothing wrong with you. Well, you don’t have to [00:35:45] have a therapist to have something imminently wrong with you. You know, that’s the whole point. Like, let’s take away that stigma.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:35:50] think that the sort of, you know, the way you’ve described [00:35:55] it is that you you weren’t fully open with [00:36:00] with relationships, you weren’t fully open with yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and now [00:36:05] you’re now things are more normalised and you can talk about it and all that. Do you think that sort of the evolution. [00:36:10] Of let’s let’s just call it minorities for [00:36:15] the sake of the argument here. Insomuch as, you know, it mustn’t [00:36:20] be that you’re you live the same experience as your dad. You [00:36:25] know, it has to evolve. It has to go forward. But there’s for me a tension [00:36:30] between keeping your identity as a as a young boy. Not [00:36:35] anymore. An old man like that.

[TRANSITION]: An old.

Rhona Eskander: Man agent.

Payman Langroudi: In [00:36:40] keeping your identity as what it is, but also evolving [00:36:45] intellectually. And, you know, in a way, in a way, I understand why people [00:36:50] marry people from the same religion and the same caste and the same. I get it, because, you know, there’s [00:36:55] that normality in it. There’s so we know where it is. At the same time, I find it a little bit disconcerting, [00:37:00] you know, that so few Asians marry out.

[TRANSITION]: It’s true, I.

Rhona Eskander: Have noticed [00:37:05] and I because I have a lot of Asian friends.

[TRANSITION]: And it’s part of the evolution.

Rhona Eskander: But also I find it really [00:37:10] remarkable how controversial things are. Like there’s disputes [00:37:15] because they’re not from the same caste. There’s disputes because, yeah, like and I’m like, wow, [00:37:20] it’s kind of fascinating. But also I think I moved away from all that Middle Eastern [00:37:25] bullshit, to be honest with you, because my father also married Catholic when he was Coptic Christian. [00:37:30] So that was like super controversial. But I find it like like as Payman said, like [00:37:35] it’s especially within the Dental arena.

Nilesh Parmar: I feel as if not our [00:37:40] generation, but the next generation I think will be much more open.

[TRANSITION]: Do you think?

Nilesh Parmar: Yeah, I mean, I tried I mean, [00:37:45] I was with the Iranian girl for a long time, right? And we almost went the whole way. And [00:37:50] the thing is, for me, I mean, my parents were never that religious. They have [00:37:55] their moments, but generally they weren’t that religious. And my dad was always a thing that, you know, as long as they’re a good person, [00:38:00] right? They’re a good person. I mean, we’re not religious ourselves anyway, so [00:38:05] it never really meant that much to me sometimes. But when you are with somebody who’s [00:38:10] the same religion, you do have a lot more things in common, etc.. Um, and it can make things easier [00:38:15] because Indian families generally are very interconnected. So I still [00:38:20] see my parents every week, I still see my sister and nephew, etc. every week. And when you [00:38:25] bring somebody into that sort of equation, if they are aware of some of the [00:38:30] idiosyncrasies of being in an Indian family, that just makes life easier, right? But you are [00:38:35] correct that Indians do still have some old school traditional values [00:38:40] which don’t really apply anymore in this country, and.

Payman Langroudi: It might [00:38:45] be the best thing and the worst thing at the same time. Yeah, exactly.

Nilesh Parmar: And I think if you come to this country and your kids are growing [00:38:50] up and your kids are going to school with white people, Iranian people, Middle Eastern people, etc., there will be. [00:38:55]

[TRANSITION]: Interconnection.

Nilesh Parmar: Interconnection with them. And if you look at Middle Eastern people, Iranian [00:39:00] people, Indian people, they do have very, very similar, similar ideologies. Right. And [00:39:05] two three of my closest friends are Iranian, and they always love telling me that this is an Iranian dish.

[TRANSITION]: I’m like, [00:39:10] no.

Nilesh Parmar: That’s an Indian dish or burnt potato dish is.

[TRANSITION]: Rubbish. I don’t like it, whatever it is. [00:39:15]

Nilesh Parmar: And um, but because there is that you, there’s that familiarity there. It’s [00:39:20] easier to make connections with those people. Right. But amongst our cohort [00:39:25] or in our family kind of, um, situation, there have been Hindus [00:39:30] marrying Sikhs, there have been Hindus marrying Christians, there have been Hindus marrying Muslims. Like [00:39:35] it’s it’s now I don’t think that’s as much of a big deal as perhaps.

Payman Langroudi: If you if you bought [00:39:40] an English girl home and said, I want to marry her, would there be eyebrows raised?

[TRANSITION]: Money would just go for anything. Yeah. [00:39:45] You like you can bring me home.

Rhona Eskander: I want to chime in here. I think from a personal point [00:39:50] of view, I had a bit of an identity crisis in the sense that when I went to Leeds [00:39:55] because of the halls that I was in, it was all like white, posh [00:40:00] public school people. Um, I lived with Prince Harry’s ex-girlfriend. [00:40:05] I made the book and I was saying that, yeah, I’m in the book. I’m in. He trusted [00:40:10] us. He trusted us. But anyway, it was a very, like, white public [00:40:15] school kind of thing. And, you know, they were very much like, oh, you’re so exotic, you know what I mean? That [00:40:20] kind of chat. And for me, for the first time in my life, I was like the brown person. And I think I tried [00:40:25] desperately, desperately to fit in like it was really important for me to fit in and feel [00:40:30] like I belonged. And I think understanding that my father struggled as an immigrant when he first came [00:40:35] to the UK, I was like trying to be white, if I’m completely honest with you. Anyway, [00:40:40] what happened was, is that the series of boyfriends that I had had a long term boyfriend, they [00:40:45] were all English, like I say all, but I had three white English boyfriends. But in the [00:40:50] end, it was like I had this epiphany when I hit 30 and I was like, I don’t want to marry [00:40:55] a white person because I actually love my culture and I know this is complete [00:41:00] generalisation, but what I found was they didn’t necessarily get my culture and get the craziness [00:41:05] and get the Middle Eastern thing and get my parents like they they would get involved, like [00:41:10] to a degree. But I think I actually craved something like that. And I think that’s [00:41:15] why I’ve ended up with a Greek person who also has similar kind of qualities and values.

Payman Langroudi: This question [00:41:20] is interesting because you’re just about about to get married. Yeah, you. Hopefully [00:41:25] we’ll get married soon. Or not. By the way, by the way, if [00:41:30] you don’t.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, who cares mate? Who cares?

Payman Langroudi: But, but but it’s important to understand [00:41:35] that when you marry someone, the two families marry. It’s real. Yeah. [00:41:40]

[TRANSITION]: Is it real about this?

Payman Langroudi: Because, I mean.

Rhona Eskander: You know, I’m lucky because my mother in law don’t [00:41:45] speak a word of English. Really? Not even, like. Not even like. Hello, Jack. Jack. [00:41:50] He said Google.

[TRANSITION]: Translate.

Rhona Eskander: It’s amazing.

Nilesh Parmar: No Google translator might mess you up.

Payman Langroudi: Lucky [00:41:55] you’re unlucky. Look, the thing is that you end up spending a lot of time with that family. Yeah, [00:42:00] there’s no way around that. I mean, they’re.

Rhona Eskander: In Greece, but.

[TRANSITION]: Sure, but you end up.

Payman Langroudi: Spending a lot of time with that family. Yeah. Unless [00:42:05] you are happy for your the dad of your kids to be away a lot. Yeah. Um, or [00:42:10] you end up taking that that son away from their family. So there’s no there’s no easy [00:42:15] answer to it. Yeah. So the generally, you’re not spending a lot of time with the other family. And [00:42:20] if the other if you don’t get on with the other family, that’s a problem. Um, and it’s easier to get on with the other [00:42:25] family if there’s some, some things you have in common. All of that is true.

Rhona Eskander: I don’t know, I don’t know, Payman. Because, like, [00:42:30] the thing is, is that my my dad’s family, they completely rejected my mum, like, horrendously so. And [00:42:35] still till this day sadly. Okay. And then I would maybe agree with you in the sense that like, we’re not close [00:42:40] to my dad’s family as a result because they completely first of all, they’re all in America. Secondly, [00:42:45] they ostracised my mum because they just would never accept her and that anything in life was like, [00:42:50] Rhona and Tanya aren’t married and living with boyfriends because they’re sinned, because she was [00:42:55] Catholic. And he was like, do you know what I mean? Even now, even now, like.

[TRANSITION]: The religious [00:43:00] extremism. But like, you guys have seen.

Rhona Eskander: My parents and my parents are like such [00:43:05] an inspiring couple. And the thing is, my dad is like, this is the woman I [00:43:10] chose, and I love her. And like, they still stuck by that, so you don’t. Yeah, I get what you’re saying. [00:43:15] But I also feel if you as a relationship are strong enough, the worst thing you want to do as [00:43:20] well, which I’ve seen happen, is marry someone that your parents want you to marry, or vice versa [00:43:25] because you’re doing it to appease them or be the perfect child. You know? And I’m sure [00:43:30] you’ve had opportunities to be set up or whatever, whatever. And they’ve had like the ideal type of girl. But you [00:43:35] know who you are as a man and you’re like, I’m not going to marry someone just because she ticks a few boxes. Do you know what I mean? [00:43:40]

Nilesh Parmar: I still remember my dad saying, I’ve got this. They call it a mongrel, which is basically like a request [00:43:45] for marriage. It’s called a mongrel. He’s like, you know, she’s from America, she’s got a [00:43:50] law degree. She’s this. And he goes, she’s a bit fat.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, it’s okay. We’ve got Jim. I was like that. [00:43:55] Yeah.

Nilesh Parmar: But luckily my parents were never that pushy. Pushy, right. They saw what I was trying [00:44:00] to do. And to their credit, they kind of left me alone. I think now.

[TRANSITION]: Maybe their grandkids and they’ve [00:44:05] got one grandkids.

Nilesh Parmar: Um, or they’ve got two actually, they’ve got two from my cousins. But I think maybe [00:44:10] they were just worried that, you know, this will be lonely when he’s older. Like, what will he do when he’s older? You know, I think it’s [00:44:15] that concern from your parents, but from what you were saying before, and I’ve [00:44:20] seen so many of my friends get married, so many of our friends get divorced. So many. Your friends have good relationships, some of my friends are [00:44:25] on their second marriages, etc. and there’s so many moving parts to it. Right? There’s [00:44:30] from what Payman said, it’s the family agenda. So do the families. If the families [00:44:35] don’t get along, you keep them apart, right? It’s when they get together. [00:44:40] That’s when the that’s when the friction happens, right? That’s when you get the flames. If the mother in law is this or the [00:44:45] father in law is that, you just have to manage the situation. But the key thing is that as long as the relationship [00:44:50] between the husband and the wife is good, then you can get through everything. And I think every [00:44:55] marriage that I’ve seen, they all have ups and downs. Nothing is easy, but it’s all about open [00:45:00] lines of communication. So if if I did ever get married and that’s another question [00:45:05] right now in my position, getting married is can be a daunting [00:45:10] thing because you have a lot to lose, right? Even financially, financially, especially. [00:45:15]

[TRANSITION]: For a man.

Nilesh Parmar: And and I’ve seen and I’ve got friends who are getting divorced and they’re giving everything, giving [00:45:20] 80%. And when I look at the action it gives me, my hoop starts buzzing because [00:45:25] my heart rate goes up so high, because I’m like, Holy shit, you’re literally just giving everything away, like everything [00:45:30] you’ve ever done. And then for someone like me in my position.

[TRANSITION]: That’s a lot.

Nilesh Parmar: I’m I’m like, [00:45:35] well, you know, is that something that I want to do? Would it just be nice to just to live with her or do I need to trust her? Or [00:45:40] do you get a prenup? And there’s all these difficult conversations that you need to have because you do have to protect yourself. [00:45:45]

Rhona Eskander: Can I just say so? My partner is extremely successful. He’s actually more successful [00:45:50] than me, and he’s accrued a lot of assets. And obviously I’ve accrued assets as well, like [00:45:55] the clinic and stuff. And we actually had a conversation, a transparent conversation, [00:46:00] and I said, I’m fine with a prenup because I [00:46:05] don’t want you to feel like I’ll take anything from you. And, you know, I’ve got my own stuff. And [00:46:10] but it’s so funny because, like you said, like when we were talking about it and then exploring it, like you said, [00:46:15] automatically by me living in his house, not even being married, I’m entitled [00:46:20] to half the house. I’m entitled to half.

[TRANSITION]: The house subconsciously.

Nilesh Parmar: That’s why girlfriends don’t live.

[TRANSITION]: Um. [00:46:25]

Rhona Eskander: And, you know, like, it’s really crazy because I was like, wow, the law is not [00:46:30] in favour.

Payman Langroudi: You know what? It’s reminding me what you’re saying here. What it’s reminding me of is the time where [00:46:35] I thought, oh, I haven’t got time to go to the gym. And then I saw President [00:46:40] Clinton in the gym. You know, there are there are people 100 times more valuable [00:46:45] than you getting married. Mhm. Yeah. So in a way it’s an irrational fear in itself.

[TRANSITION]: That is true. [00:46:50] But I think there’s.

Nilesh Parmar: Just something you need to have in the back of so. So let’s say if I turned up with some 22 [00:46:55] year.

[TRANSITION]: Old come on. Yeah exactly. It’s a bit different when finished.

Nilesh Parmar: You just you, you just [00:47:00] keep that in the back of your mind. You assess. And for me, I also go [00:47:05] on the opinion of my inner circle. Like my close friends. They’ll meet her, see what they think [00:47:10] you know. Is it approved? Is it because I feel as if sometimes we just have rose tinted glasses, right? You’re with someone. [00:47:15] You love her. You love him. Whatever your your ability to make determinations [00:47:20] on that person is skewed because of how you feel. Your family’s ability [00:47:25] to make determination be skewed because how they want to protect you. There’s only your friends who can look at [00:47:30] that person and say, right? And I remember I had this one patient who sadly [00:47:35] passed away a few years ago that I did mad work for, like hip Bone. [00:47:40] Everything totally changed her smile. She became the most happiest person in the world, but she was a [00:47:45] former CEO of a company very, very die hard, cutthroat, really good with [00:47:50] people. And she’s like, Ellis, if you ever are going to get married, I want to meet this [00:47:55] guy. And I was thinking, shit, I feel sorry for her because she will just obliterate her, just take her apart. And [00:48:00] you need people like that to meet the person that you’re going to spend the rest of your life with [00:48:05] and to help you make those decisions. But like you say, Bill Clinton has got time to go.

Rhona Eskander: Martin was their CEO, [00:48:10] married, by the way.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. She was.

Rhona Eskander: Successful marriage.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

Nilesh Parmar: She [00:48:15] was good.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Good.

Nilesh Parmar: Bill Clinton has got time to go to the gym. He always got time to cheat on his wife.

Rhona Eskander: Exactly. [00:48:20] And let’s not forget what happened to Monica Lewinsky.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I was talking about the gym. There I was, I was saying [00:48:25] I didn’t have time for the gym. And yet the president of the United States back then did have time to give to you.

Nilesh Parmar: But [00:48:30] again, I think you just have to be a little bit protected about yourself, because everything [00:48:35] you’ve worked for and I and the way I look at it, it’s also not just my assets, it’s the assets of the family [00:48:40] and what’s been built up.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, exactly.

Nilesh Parmar: I should choose where those assets go. It should go to [00:48:45] my nephew. Should go to my sisters.

[TRANSITION]: Um, you got to start.

Rhona Eskander: Thinking about your will and stuff. It’s all very complicated. [00:48:50]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: Look, the Duke of Westminster just got married. Yes. Yeah, I know babies. Which is. Man, he just.

[TRANSITION]: Got [00:48:55] married. But also, like you.

Payman Langroudi: Can rich people get married every day?

[TRANSITION]: I know, I.

Rhona Eskander: Get that, and they get fucked over all the time as well, and [00:49:00] they.

Nilesh Parmar: Get fucked over.

[TRANSITION]: But yeah, but you.

Nilesh Parmar: Just have to have that conversation with that person.

[TRANSITION]: Correct.

Rhona Eskander: And I think if you’re in a really [00:49:05] loving, safe, secure, like, do you not remember me and you about eight years ago? I think it was [00:49:10] on Facebook. I don’t know if you remember this. We had a conversation or someone put something up about a prenup. [00:49:15] I think you did. And I said, and at this time, I was single. I was like, I don’t see anything wrong. [00:49:20] Like, if you love the person, you can have the conversation and all these girls that are kicking off being like, if anyone [00:49:25] asks me to prenup, I would like, I’m gone and all this stuff. And I was like, guys like, it’s [00:49:30] like the freezing the egg thing. It’s like an insurance policy. Hopefully you never need the fucking [00:49:35] action it, but you don’t know what life is going to throw at you, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. And right, [00:49:40] I know we’ve talked about relationships like pretty much the whole way through this podcast, but I do want to ask [00:49:45] you a bit about dentistry if that’s okay with you. So obviously you’re one of the most successful dentists [00:49:50] in the industry. You know, you, um, pave the way for a lot of dentists, including myself [00:49:55] and my embryonic stages of my career. What was your darkest moment in dentistry? [00:50:00]

Nilesh Parmar: Oh. Good question. Um, us getting struck off, I think, was probably my darkest moment. [00:50:05] So in the and that happened very, very early on. So, um, I had [00:50:10] a GDC case, um, which I said I was going to talk about, but what the hell? It’s out there. Yeah, I had a GDC case. [00:50:15] Um, and if you Google it, it’s really hard to find now because there’s so much other stuff about me and [00:50:20] there wasn’t anything patient related. It was just something very silly. And when you’re young, you make stupid [00:50:25] mistakes. And that was deep. And and I think there’s been quite a few dentists or well [00:50:30] known dentists who’ve gone through that, who’ve talked about it and written about it. And I think I always [00:50:35] used to make a joke that if I won the lottery, I would spend my time trying to sort [00:50:40] out our regulatory body and how dentists if I just didn’t give a shit, right. If [00:50:45] I had, if I had enough money to do what I want to do, which would be to race cars around [00:50:50] the world and give up dentistry, I would put aside a considerable sum of money [00:50:55] and get some people on board to say, right, the way we regulate [00:51:00] dentists or the way we look at dentists when potentially they’ve done something wrong, even if they haven’t, [00:51:05] is so detrimental to their mental health. And we have had so many [00:51:10] dentists commit suicide because they’ve had GDC cases. And there was one dentist that he had a case going on [00:51:15] for two years.

Nilesh Parmar: Nothing happened at the end of it, but he had this little sword [00:51:20] of Damocles dangling across his head for two years. It’s really difficult. Delivered [00:51:25] when I was in that position. It was done after about six months or so, and [00:51:30] I didn’t have any family. I didn’t have any kids to look after a mortgage or anything at that time. [00:51:35] It was really early on. And, um, it was almost like getting in trouble for [00:51:40] being drunk and stupid and sending a few stupid emails. But, um, what [00:51:45] I found really difficult was once the case was finished, you think, okay, [00:51:50] it’s done. I can move on with my life. And you and I have both been the victim of [00:51:55] bullying as well. Yeah, and you’d get online trolling. And there was. There was a point where [00:52:00] I almost thought to myself, I’m going to go to this person’s house and I’m going to kick the shit out of it. I’m [00:52:05] actually going to go there and physically knock him out, and you would never do it. But [00:52:10] you became so angry at these people, you think, how dare they say these things? They’ve [00:52:15] never met me. They don’t know anything about me. And then, you know, I used to do. And I think that’s [00:52:20] also rife in our profession. I think it’s rife in any profession is jealousy and his online [00:52:25] trolling and bullying. And we don’t control it. And I think there’s Shiraz. So Shiraz Khan, [00:52:30] who I’m very friendly with, he was he was being trolled online, really. [00:52:35] And I remember I was the only one because I sort of got PTSD from what happened to me. [00:52:40]

Nilesh Parmar: And Shiraz and I are so close now because of it, because I was the only one that stood up for him and said, you [00:52:45] know what, guys, leave this guy alone. Just back off and leave him alone. And I think we’re now in a position [00:52:50] where we don’t really care what the other people think because we’ve made [00:52:55] it or we’ve we’ve got enough now. We don’t really care. So I don’t have an issue standing [00:53:00] up to bullies anymore. But back then I was very, very meek. I was very quiet. And I remember [00:53:05] there was a well known dentist who actually screenshotted one of my Instagram posts and sent it to my dad [00:53:10] saying, what is your son doing? And it was something to do with a car or like a, you know, the [00:53:15] steering wheel of the car or something. I remember my dad showing this to me, going, who’s this guy? And I said, oh, [00:53:20] he’s, he’s a, he’s a dentist in central London. Um, and um, he’s [00:53:25] just a bit jealous. And my dad said some profanities in, in Hindi and then we kind of left it. And that [00:53:30] online trolling and online bullying I think happened so much more now. It happened so much more in university. [00:53:35] It happens so much more undergraduate because it’s it can be a very, very prolific [00:53:40] way of getting underneath someone’s skin. When we had it, I think it was in its [00:53:45] embryonic stages. No, I mean.

Rhona Eskander: Unfortunately Payman knows already. I still get it all the time because [00:53:50] obviously my profile is not just for dentists, but it’s also out there to the public. But pretty [00:53:55] much most of my trolls are dentists. And the abuse I get and, you know, there was an eminent [00:54:00] person within the industry, which is I’m not going to mention his name, but sometimes when he’s [00:54:05] trolling, they’ll have other dentists be like, what is wrong with this guy? He’s literally an old man. Like heckling [00:54:10] a young girl, like, what is even going on here? And sometimes it makes him look bad. But [00:54:15] like, Payman was like, no, but like, you know, his people will think that he’s like, really cool for, like, calling you. I’m like calling me out [00:54:20] for what? Like my page isn’t to him, you know what I mean? My page is very patient orientated. [00:54:25]

Payman Langroudi: Wait wait wait wait wait the the we talked about this before, [00:54:30] but but the separate arguments about clinical work, [00:54:35] you know that that’s the bucket I would put that in. Yeah. It wasn’t. [00:54:40]

Rhona Eskander: Really I mean this is just.

[TRANSITION]: Offline like.

Payman Langroudi: No I agree with you. Some people use clinical work to bully people. [00:54:45] Yeah they do. That’s that’s right. But let’s separate that out from the other stuff. You showed me where [00:54:50] someone was. I hope your parents die.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. No. Like that’s the stuff. Like, if you don’t speak, you don’t speak about the [00:54:55] conflict, the war, then like you deserve to burn in hell, that kind of stuff. But the thing is, I had [00:55:00] three dentists that had sent me messages, didn’t even hide their profile. Like, you know what I mean? Just being like, shut [00:55:05] the f up. Are you being paid by this side and all this stuff? But the point is, I think [00:55:10] it is disgusting. Now people say in every industry you’re going to have bullies and trolls. But I tell you [00:55:15] one thing like my partner works in finance, that ever happened in finance, that is it. They lose their [00:55:20] job. They lose their job. Do you use social media to bully or heckle a colleague? Done. [00:55:25] Even if they’re not in your company, it’s done. It’s done. And the thing is, we are [00:55:30] healthcare professionals. We are under oath. We have a code of conduct and how we should behave towards [00:55:35] patients. Therefore, I think we should have a code of conduct on how we actually communicate with each [00:55:40] other. And I think part of the problem, as you’re saying, is also the profession wanting [00:55:45] to whistle blow on their colleagues for jealousy, which I think happens as well. You know, there’d be like, [00:55:50] there is a dentist who I bumped into and I don’t know if it’s the same one they’re talking about. You know him very well. My [00:55:55] heart broke last week because he had a GDC case. He was whistleblower. One of his colleagues [00:56:00] was a whistleblower, and he went on antidepressants for two years. And [00:56:05] he’s basically left dentistry now because by the end of it, he ended up suing the GDC.

[TRANSITION]: So [00:56:10] he sued.

Rhona Eskander: The GDC for what they put him through because suddenly he wasn’t allowed to work. He had his [00:56:15] own practice. His day was wake up, take his daughter to school and then just sit around. [00:56:20] They they investigated his laptop. They investigated every. Everything right, and [00:56:25] he felt like a criminal. So as a result, he got one of the best barristers. Um, [00:56:30] one of the, the, his indemnity were like, no, no, no. Are you sure you want to see [00:56:35] the GDC? He was like, I am so sure I’m gonna sue. And he won. He won. But the point is, [00:56:40] is now his mental health had been destroyed. He’s a 47 year old man and [00:56:45] he’s leaving. He’s like, I’m done, I am done. And he was a dentist that loved his profession. [00:56:50] So it’s a I think it really does need an overhaul.

Nilesh Parmar: We don’t have that ability [00:56:55] to self regulate our own dentists. So if a dentist is [00:57:00] trolling another dentist, especially if it’s online or whatever, there’s it’s very difficult to do anything [00:57:05] about it. Right. Unless you if you call them out, then that could have repercussions. If other people [00:57:10] get involved, that could have repercussions. And ah, I really would like our governing body [00:57:15] to say, right, we’re now all looking to online trolling. If you’ve got proof that somebody [00:57:20] is trolling, which.

Rhona Eskander: We can.

Nilesh Parmar: Easy. And if you’ve got whatever you need to prove it, then [00:57:25] they really need to be looked at. And I would love for, you know, where we have our little names [00:57:30] on the little list to say this dentist has been suspended for online trolling. I’d just [00:57:35] love if that was on there because and you know, the thing is, whatever you do, whatever [00:57:40] good you do, right, you’ll always get people that will see the bad. And when I did Ice White, there was a [00:57:45] well known specialist in central London who was going around telling people that needles kept the money. [00:57:50] So I kept the profits and the charity companies. Right. Despite the fact that there’s a big picture of me with a check with the owner [00:57:55] of the charity going, here’s the money. Right. And so that made me understand [00:58:00] that you can be the best person in the world, right? But there’ll always be people that will try and get you to roll around [00:58:05] in the mud with them. And there was that Oprah Winfrey quote, isn’t it? Which is just be excellent. [00:58:10] Whatever you do, just be excellent. Just try and rise above it. But you know what?

[TRANSITION]: Sometimes you can’t.

Nilesh Parmar: You don’t want to rise, [00:58:15] but you want to get in the mud and you want to punch that guy in the face.

Payman Langroudi: I want to say a couple of things. I want to say a couple of things. Oh, here we [00:58:20] go. There is this is a symptom of the change from analogue to digital. Yeah. [00:58:25] And and you’re right. You know, you both of you have [00:58:30] social media veterans if you like. Yes. People almost almost native to social media [00:58:35] understand what a troll is. What what what the rules of engagement [00:58:40] are. Yeah. But some of these older guys, you know, they weren’t they weren’t in the social [00:58:45] media age. It’s basically I’m going to say what’s in my head. But I think.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah I.

Payman Langroudi: Disagree. [00:58:50] Yeah. Now your your solution to this issue [00:58:55] this problem or yours. Yeah. Of you know having the GDC involved. Yeah. It’s [00:59:00] not necessarily a better world. Yeah. It’s not necessarily just imagine this accountability. Wait a minute. [00:59:05] This guy said I don’t think your approach on that composite was right for the sake.

[TRANSITION]: Of I mean, [00:59:10] he didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Say for the sake of the argument, for the sake of the argument is I don’t think your approach on that composite was right. You say? Yes, [00:59:15] it was, I think I think I did this and then he says something slightly, slightly off. Yeah. Now what we’re [00:59:20] going to do, we’re going to, we’re going to send it to the judiciary.

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Rhona Eskander: It’s not that kind of trolling like you’ve seen like [00:59:25] screenshotting and ridiculing your lifestyle screenshotting and ridiculing the way [00:59:30] that you look, making fun of, you know, that bullying tactics. I’m not saying whether they agree [00:59:35] or not with your bonding protocol. You know, your implant protocol, like we’re talking about things that are [00:59:40] deeply personal.

[TRANSITION]: You know, within.

Payman Langroudi: A practice, bullying goes on a hundred times a day. You know, all [00:59:45] the time.

[TRANSITION]: It happens all the time.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, fine. I hear what you’re saying. Like it’s [00:59:50] the same argument, like with, you know, do we put criminals in prison because it doesn’t like most criminals when [00:59:55] they’ve released.

[TRANSITION]: Less GDC, not more? No, no. What I mean.

Rhona Eskander: But I think there is accountability, right? [01:00:00] Because although like the GDC, the law firms, etc., to [01:00:05] some degree make a lot of dentists behave in line with patients [01:00:10] because there’s always that fear that things that your job is on the line. So if we regulate people’s behaviour [01:00:15] online, we therefore make people accountable for their actions. They will think twice [01:00:20] before they type. Or there could be some kind of guideline like you should like [01:00:25] treat your colleagues with respect if you have a genuine concern about something, blah blah blah. [01:00:30] But listen, we’re not going to resolve this now. Neelasha is going to become a multi-billionaire. I sought out the GDC. We’ve decided [01:00:35] that. Okay.

[TRANSITION]: Tell me about.

Payman Langroudi: Your political ambitions, because I remember that was a thing [01:00:40] for a while and I remember it was conservatives. Surely you’re not.

Nilesh Parmar: Still are. [01:00:45] It’s absolute shambles, isn’t it? Yeah. You know, yesterday Keir Starmer said I [01:00:50] do go to an NHS dentist but I’m seeing privately because they don’t see NHS [01:00:55] patients.

[TRANSITION]: Dude, you don’t.

Nilesh Parmar: Even understand how the health service.

[TRANSITION]: Works. Yeah.

Nilesh Parmar: So we’ve got no [01:01:00] hope basically. Um political ambitions. Yeah. There always was. [01:01:05] I mean, I really love that sort of stuff. But for me it’s it’ll be something a bit later [01:01:10] on. I think not now. I think there’s a lot of good that we can do, [01:01:15] especially in our profession, which I think kind of gets sidelined. Right, especially in as a political [01:01:20] hot potato. And nobody really cares. Nobody really deals with it. Nothing really. Changes. We’ve had the same [01:01:25] system. I mean, I think NHS entry, if it was handled properly, [01:01:30] could be the envy of the world because the clinicians we have a very, [01:01:35] very good and you’ve got clinicians who will work in the health service. If they’re remunerated a [01:01:40] fair amount. That doesn’t mean it has to be a crazy amount. But you’ve got you’ve got that. Most of the dentistry in the UK [01:01:45] is NHS dentistry, right? It’s just over 50%, I think, in the last numbers. So if you [01:01:50] had good amount of money thrown at it then yeah, you could do something special.

Payman Langroudi: There’s no more money going into [01:01:55] dentistry, let’s face that.

Nilesh Parmar: But the thing is, if the money.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s a reallocation question.

[TRANSITION]: Well, if it’s about.

Nilesh Parmar: They [01:02:00] put about a billion in right. For that I think that’s about £1 billion.

[TRANSITION]: I think it’s 2%.

Payman Langroudi: Of health spending [01:02:05] is. Yeah.

Nilesh Parmar: But you see I think it’s where the priorities lie. And is it something that we’re going [01:02:10] to sort out. No. But it’s something I’d like to be a part of at some point just to try and improve the lives of dentists, [01:02:15] improve the lives of nurses, hygienists and also the patients. Because at the end of the day, right, [01:02:20] we’re here to help people. And if we can make a positive impact [01:02:25] on somebody’s oral health, which I think has such a big deal with the rest of the body that we know, then maybe [01:02:30] it’s something we need to look at. And I still see NHS patients. I’ve got loads of little old ladies that I still see. I do [01:02:35] get the odd pro bono case like Rona, and you just try and help people because if we don’t [01:02:40] help them, nobody else will help them. And sometimes it’s, it’s, it’s karma as well. [01:02:45] Right. You want to help people and you feel as if that’s going to come around. I think some of my most [01:02:50] happiest moments have been helping those patients smile and eat and talk, and they’ll send you pictures of the wedding [01:02:55] or pictures of them with the grandkids or whatever. And it it hits a spot that nothing else does [01:03:00] this.

Payman Langroudi: Well, let’s finish with karma again. Yeah, because I’ll tell you where [01:03:05] the problem I’ve got with karma. Two things really. One, it seems a bit selfish. [01:03:10] Yeah, that I’m doing this so that something comes back to me. Yeah. [01:03:15] If you really believe it does. Right. Um, the second thing is I, [01:03:20] I fully accept doing nice things ends up with you getting nice stuff. A bag [01:03:25] in a in a obvious way. In a practical way. But when I say, do you believe [01:03:30] in karma? I’m not saying that. I’m not saying, hey, she came over, I was nice to you and [01:03:35] gave you a coffee. Next time I call you, you’ll be nice to me. It’s not that karma is some sort of supernatural. [01:03:40] Thing where I don’t know, I [01:03:45] found I found £20 on the floor. Instead of handing it in, I spent it on something. That thing ended [01:03:50] up ruining my life. And that kind of karma. Yeah, is what I know you [01:03:55] do.

Nilesh Parmar: Pretty much Payman.

[TRANSITION]: I think too much, Steve. Just do good and good things. [01:04:00] It’s not a hinduistic I’m doing good. But yeah, I get it.

Rhona Eskander: And I love that. I think.

[TRANSITION]: Hinduism [01:04:05] and Buddhism, the difference.

Payman Langroudi: That you’ve given money to charity. Yeah. Yeah. You know.

[TRANSITION]: To [01:04:10] Lesvos.

Rhona Eskander: Many times.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Although I find that less, less interesting [01:04:15] than it sounds.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I don’t do it for interest. Payman like I do it for like [01:04:20] I said, like I. And again, for me, for me, this is much [01:04:25] more important than reposting a middle eastern post. I have been going for many years [01:04:30] to refugee camps. I’ve been going to refugee camps. Why? Because I have a skill. [01:04:35] Is it for you can help people? No, because I genuinely want to help people.

[TRANSITION]: If you.

Payman Langroudi: Genuinely want to help people, [01:04:40] why don’t you donate a month’s salary and send 3030 dentists to.

Rhona Eskander: I [01:04:45] have, I.

[TRANSITION]: Have you’re talking about.

Rhona Eskander: That book my partner told me.

[TRANSITION]: About, you know, the same.

Payman Langroudi: Week that you’re spending [01:04:50] in Lesbos you could spend in Chelsea, make enough money to send five dentists to Lesbos. Yeah, because if you really cared.

[TRANSITION]: But [01:04:55] also people know.

Rhona Eskander: Because I also think, of course I care about people.

[TRANSITION]: If you really cared about.

Rhona Eskander: I [01:05:00] really care about people. Let me finish. But yeah, the point is [01:05:05] right as well. It’s like my grandfather is half Palestinian. Right? So meeting like Middle Eastern, [01:05:10] Syrian, Palestinian refugees is something that I feel very connected to. And there is something [01:05:15] much more profound about that. And, you know, being with those children and be and because [01:05:20] I have a large following, I am influencing a lot of dentists to go out there, which is what I do. [01:05:25] And you know that.

Payman Langroudi: Good, good, good, good answer.

[TRANSITION]: But it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Effective [01:05:30] altruism. Have you heard about it?

[TRANSITION]: So and I also.

Nilesh Parmar: Think, you know, it takes more hard work [01:05:35] for her to go.

[TRANSITION]: Herself. Correct.

Nilesh Parmar: As opposed.

[TRANSITION]: To just throwing money at it, just writing.

Nilesh Parmar: A check [01:05:40] because that there’s a risk involved. You know, there’s time out. There’s time out of her life. [01:05:45] There’s a travel, there’s this, there’s that. It’s ruining her routine. So that’s why I think we can’t [01:05:50] just write checks and we can give. We can.

Payman Langroudi: But my point is, though. Yeah. You know. No, no, [01:05:55] you could drive this truck and give give food to the hungry. Yeah. And there’s a power [01:06:00] dynamic in that. Yeah. That if I didn’t drive this truck and I didn’t give the food, they [01:06:05] wouldn’t eat today. Yeah. And this, of course you get something out of it yourself. [01:06:10] Right. And all all I’m saying is, yeah, that a lot of charity work can be seen as you’re [01:06:15] doing it for yourself.

[TRANSITION]: Rather than totally.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing. Yeah. [01:06:20] I’m saying that’s what you’re doing.

[TRANSITION]: That’s what some.

Rhona Eskander: People say about Gandhi and Mother Teresa, you know? But at the end of the day, they [01:06:25] affected a lot of people. So I’m here.

Nilesh Parmar: At the end.

[TRANSITION]: Result. Thank you, thank you.

Nilesh Parmar: It doesn’t matter if somebody’s [01:06:30] going there just to do this, but the fact that the kid gets fed exactly is the [01:06:35] end result.

[TRANSITION]: I know, but.

Payman Langroudi: More kids would be fed if that was the thing we were really measuring. [01:06:40] Two more kids would be fed by horsetail in Chelsea and working her butt off [01:06:45] in Chelsea and and playing loads of other people. But then to go. But his hourly rate is a lot lower. [01:06:50]

Nilesh Parmar: And then look at it if you’re if you have a control freak like me and Rona, right. For me, I [01:06:55] know that the kid will get be fed better if I feed the kid.

Payman Langroudi: Somebody professional like [01:07:00] someone who feeds kids. That’s a job he does.

[TRANSITION]: Listen, at the end of the day, I mean, at the end of the day, go back and forth [01:07:05] on that one.

Rhona Eskander: At the end of the day, you need to write a book on this because I’m not convinced and we [01:07:10] are running out of time. So, Niklas, it has been such a pleasure having you [01:07:15] today on my movies and hearing a different side to you. And thank you so much for your vulnerability. [01:07:20] I’m sure it will help a lot of dentists. We’ve all heard. You know, how you’ve become one of the most [01:07:25] successful dentists, but I think it’s so important to have other dentists inspired on conversations that [01:07:30] we don’t have on the regular. So thank you very much. My pleasure.

Payman Langroudi: Perfect. Thanks a lot for coming in, buddy. Thanks.