Barry Oulton: And so once I started to deal with my limiting beliefs and you can do limiting beliefs around relationships, [00:00:05] around yourself, around clearly the list that I’ve got is around wealth and money [00:00:10] and attitude towards towards money. Once you start to remove these limiting [00:00:15] beliefs, it frees you up to be making better choices. I’m now if [00:00:20] you imagine that I saw ten patients and and nine out of them chose the filling, [00:00:25] I now know that I did not serve them well enough because I put them off the crown, knowing [00:00:30] that the crown was the best. I didn’t put them off the crown consciously, but my [00:00:35] own limiting beliefs prevented them from choosing the best because they didn’t hear me [00:00:40] say the crown is best because I negated it subconsciously for them with the word. But [00:00:45] it’s crazy, right?

[VOICE]: This [00:00:50] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:55] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:01:00] Your hosts Payman [00:01:05] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: How we run [00:01:10] our businesses, the way we communicate with our teams, our customers, [00:01:15] the way we look at the world really makes a massive difference to our outcomes. And [00:01:20] some dentists are taking on coaches and we’ve got one of the country’s [00:01:25] original coaches, NLP expert, communication expert, the confident [00:01:30] dentist Barry Alton. Um, lovely to have you on the podcast, [00:01:35] bud.

Barry Oulton: Thanks for having me Payman. It’s very lovely to be here.

Payman Langroudi: Barry. [00:01:40] This conversation tends to be one where we’re trying to figure out, you know, what made [00:01:45] you Barry Alton and then, you know, the the direction you’ve gone. So when you think [00:01:50] back to your childhood, is there something that stands out in that [00:01:55] journey of whatever it was that makes you feel like it’s [00:02:00] informed you becoming the person you are today?

Barry Oulton: Yeah, I think that’s [00:02:05] an interesting question, Charles. I think the influencing the biggest influencing factors were [00:02:10] later on. Uh, but certainly my dad has been a huge influence. My, [00:02:15] my dad groomed me to, to be in a profession he didn’t [00:02:20] really mind what profession, but given that my dad probably couldn’t read and write until he was late 20s. [00:02:25] Um, tough, very tough upbringing in Liverpool. He [00:02:30] became the basically became, uh, almost parenting his [00:02:35] four siblings from the age of eight. And he had a very tough upbringing. So he [00:02:40] what he wanted for his sons, me and my older brother, was that we would be part of a profession. So [00:02:45] I think it was, uh, predetermined that I would go down some line of that. And so [00:02:50] that was a big influence, and he just wanted the best for us. So he was constantly pushing [00:02:55] us to do the best that we could possibly do.

Payman Langroudi: How did dentistry come on the scene? Like why dentistry? [00:03:00]

Barry Oulton: So that’s an interesting situation because I was incredibly artistic. [00:03:05] But my dad had a belief that art was a good hobby, and it was it [00:03:10] would take me in the wrong direction. And so as a kid, I wasn’t permitted to study it. I wanted [00:03:15] to do art. The art teacher wanted me to do art. So in my spare time, uh, [00:03:20] at the age of when did we choose? Probably 14. 15. I [00:03:25] would be painting, I’d be drawing. I was engraving glass. [00:03:30] I was creative at home, but I had to do sciences and I had to do, [00:03:35] you know, the things that would more likely take me into one of the professions. And so [00:03:40] I at that point, I was a bit of an odd kid. What do you want to be when you grow up? And it was I want to be a [00:03:45] dad, which is a strange answer, but I, I knew that that’s I wanted to be a [00:03:50] family man. I wanted a family. So I convinced myself that I would be a paediatric [00:03:55] doctor and went down the route. But I, I was labelled [00:04:00] as a slow learner. As a daydreamer, I struggled to remember stuff [00:04:05] at at school. I excelled in things that were practical. I’m an experiential learner. [00:04:10] I’m highly kinaesthetic. We now know from our recent last three [00:04:15] four years with my eldest son, who is currently not being accepted [00:04:20] in any school. He’s being homeschooled because of his ADHD. We now know that I’m [00:04:25] highly ADHD as well, so going back in time things start to fit [00:04:30] into place. So I was applying for medicine. I had a car crash the two days [00:04:35] before my A levels sat my A-levels.

Barry Oulton: I didn’t get the results I needed, but that gave me breathing [00:04:40] space. I went back and re sat and I decided I wanted to do dentistry and having [00:04:45] not been allowed to do art for years, it was probably eight years later [00:04:50] and like 2 or 3 years after qualifying, that it dawned on me that I’d landed [00:04:55] on my feet in terms of being an artist. And because I now hand [00:05:00] carved smiles, I became a senior instructor for Larry Rosenthal’s crew, both [00:05:05] here and in America, teaching dentists 20 years older than me how [00:05:10] to create a smiles and how to hand carve them. And so I ended [00:05:15] up being an artist. And oddly, in my practice, I [00:05:20] don’t work from surgeries. I call them studios. And so little things kind of [00:05:25] dropped into place when ADHD was presented to us as a family [00:05:30] trait. And this transition that I’m moving away from clinical dentistry and moving [00:05:35] full time into coaching has also been a real task for me, because dentistry [00:05:40] has been so beautifully organised for me and such a [00:05:45] highly productive. So I work from two studios, I have two nurses. We have [00:05:50] this beautiful systemised approach to our patient journey. I don’t know what I’m doing until [00:05:55] I walk into the room, but then I’m I’m in flow. I’m, you know, I end up having [00:06:00] great conversations and relationships with my patients. And at the end of the day, I look at [00:06:05] the finances and go, what a successful day. And I have these all these hits of dopamine. And at the [00:06:10] end of the day, I know what I’ve done and I know how how well I’ve achieved.

Barry Oulton: And you now take me out of that scenario. [00:06:15] Put me in a shed in the garden where I’m building my coaching business, and it’s [00:06:20] very different. You know, the income is feast or fallow. It’s not a daily target. And [00:06:25] so I it’s been a quite a steep learning curve and adjusting. But [00:06:30] I think ultimately getting into dentistry was partly because [00:06:35] I wanted a family. And when I was looking at any medics that we knew, they were travelling [00:06:40] wherever the jobs were, you got to remember, this is like 35 years ago and [00:06:45] all the dentists that we knew, not many, but they were doing really well, [00:06:50] ran their own business, worked under their own hours, and I thought, you [00:06:55] know, that that kind of that’s for me. And then when I, I struggled in first year because [00:07:00] it was removing histopathology, anatomy, physiology, all of this reading and having [00:07:05] to remember as soon as I got hands on into something, that’s [00:07:10] when I really hit my lane. And I went from struggling [00:07:15] to excelling. When it was hands on, I was, you know, I’d finished, I’d finished [00:07:20] doing the wax up for a gold crown before anybody, you know, put [00:07:25] in their first fissure. And then I was hand carving roses and just stuff like [00:07:30] that. So I’ve, I have I love dentistry, I [00:07:35] love the interaction with with people. I’m a people person. I love the relationships [00:07:40] I’ve been in my practice now for. Well, I’m exiting. But 25 [00:07:45] years I’ve been in that one place and it still feels like yesterday. Um, where. [00:07:50]

Payman Langroudi: Where did you study?

Barry Oulton: I’m a Leeds grad for my, um, undergrad. [00:07:55] I then did Dpd’s, which is a three year post [00:08:00] grad in, uh, attached to Bristol. And then I did most of my, [00:08:05] um, post grad studying over in the States in terms of [00:08:10] eight levels of Dawson, as with John Cranham in his practice. I was with Galit [00:08:15] Goral in his practice, where I learned my veneers. Um, I spent [00:08:20] time with Spear in Florida, in fact. And then all my [00:08:25] NLP training was in the States as well, so all over the place to be honest. Oh, and Romania, [00:08:30] Romania as well. I did some training in Romania with flooring.

Payman Langroudi: Flooring?

Barry Oulton: Yeah. [00:08:35] What a what a guy.

Payman Langroudi: So. And where had you grown up before? [00:08:40] Leeds.

Barry Oulton: So near Liverpool, on the Wirral. So the Welsh would call me a plastic Scouser [00:08:45] and the Scousers would call me a woolly back. Because the Wirral [00:08:50] is this little peninsula, so it’s got three sides of water on it between North Wales [00:08:55] and Liverpool. Um, so born and bred on the Wirral, went over to Leeds and then I did [00:09:00] my VTE year back on the Wirral before I came down south.

Payman Langroudi: And what kind of a cat [00:09:05] were you? I mean, like when you, when you got to Leeds, was it like, you know, your first taste [00:09:10] of freedom. Did you party loads or didn’t you party loads did you. What were you like? [00:09:15]

Barry Oulton: I was a village boy. My one of my my best mate. My best man is [00:09:20] one of the, uh, the heads of the police in Liverpool. And he said, you know, you’ve [00:09:25] been brought up in Disneyland and you haven’t got a clue what’s going on in the world. And, [00:09:30] you know, I used to think, well, that’s not true. And now I know absolutely it was true. So, [00:09:35] um, I was very I was shy, I was really shy, to be honest. I wouldn’t say boo to [00:09:40] a goose. And then, um, the thing that really broke the mould was, [00:09:45] uh, I met and started dating an aerobics instructor, [00:09:50] and, um, got super fit, and I became an aerobics instructor myself [00:09:55] and a presenter and actually end of university, I [00:10:00] had a decision to make whether to become, because I was working with some stuff, there was [00:10:05] some TV work offered and some international stuff offered. I was [00:10:10] I was presenting to present teaching presenters. I was basically I was pretty good at it, [00:10:15] jumping up and down. And that’s how I met my my first wife [00:10:20] teaching classes. So I was teaching aerobics, and that just brought my confidence up because [00:10:25] then it was effectively performing in front of people, creating and that creative [00:10:30] side. So I was creating routines, and then I was teaching instructors how to deliver [00:10:35] those routines. And so that really helped me to come out of my shell. So uni was great. [00:10:40] I was I lived in a house, we bought a house, me and uh, three mates [00:10:45] who were medics and uh, I had a fantastic time at university, but I [00:10:50] really got in. I got into my own personal groove of confidence. I would say, [00:10:55] um, at the point I, a point at which I qualified. And then life was just phenomenal [00:11:00] after that because I was mixing, teaching, aerobics. I was doing like 14 hours a week on top [00:11:05] of working full time. So I had. Yeah, I had plenty of money and plenty of time [00:11:10] and plenty of fun. And yeah, it was it was good.

Payman Langroudi: So then the [00:11:15] journey from that point of, you know, qualifying to starting [00:11:20] your own practice, how long was that?

Barry Oulton: Five years. So I knew I mean, my dad and. [00:11:25]

Payman Langroudi: That was this practice that you just.

Barry Oulton: Exited. Right. So he taught himself to read and write, got himself [00:11:30] kind of to university, to a level at university because he became [00:11:35] probation officer, social worker. And then he ended his career being [00:11:40] head of child protection at Liverpool, which is a goddamn awful job. But none [00:11:45] of those paid very well. And so he was also a TV engineer back in the days [00:11:50] where TVs had tubes and stuff like that. So my dad from [00:11:55] from the day that I can remember him, worked two jobs. Uh, he’d work in 9 to 5, [00:12:00] where he’d be in Chester, he’d come home, he’d have dinner, and then he’d work till, [00:12:05] I don’t know, 11 midnight, whatever. Fixing TVs, delivering, doing [00:12:10] all sorts of stuff. So I always knew that I wanted to be self-employed because I saw the difference between [00:12:15] being employed and being self-employed. So I, I consciously made a decision that I would go [00:12:20] down to London for five years and work in as many different practices as I possibly [00:12:25] could in order to find out what I wanted to do, because I had no idea. Right? I [00:12:30] qualified from uni, did my with a phenomenal man, and that was, you [00:12:35] know, I got a taste of what it’s like to work in the NHS. And so then I [00:12:40] went down to London and I didn’t work anywhere full time.

Barry Oulton: I worked in in a whole [00:12:45] range of different places part time. I think I ended up working in 10 or [00:12:50] 11 different practices to get an idea of what I wanted. And then I met a man who [00:12:55] became a phenomenal mentor to me, a guy who [00:13:00] was going to be starting up a corporate back in the day, a guy called Julian [00:13:05] Perry, who then ended up at I know, Julian Perry. So [00:13:10] he took he took me under his wing for probably ten, 12 years, [00:13:15] something like that, maybe even longer. And he taught me what private dentistry was, [00:13:20] taught me how, you know, how to have conversations with patients. And this is before I really, truly [00:13:25] learned the essence of communication. And then he was buying this [00:13:30] practice in a place called Hazelmere in Surrey, near Guildford, to be part of [00:13:35] his corporate. And that was in the day where there were like I think there was something like 12 or [00:13:40] 14, don’t remember limited company names that were allowed in dentistry. And that [00:13:45] was in the day when nobody else could set up a limited company. It was all kind of single [00:13:50] handed practitioners. Right. And these limited that.

Payman Langroudi: Was that was um, aura. [00:13:55] Right. It was.

Barry Oulton: Aura. Great memory. So he was setting up aura. Yeah. And I [00:14:00] phoned him one day because I was working for him in, um, Wandsworth. And he’d already had. [00:14:05]

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been to that practice.

Barry Oulton: He already had Thayer Street, and he was buying three practices. But [00:14:10] then he found out that the the limited company name that he was purchasing and they were swapping for crazy money [00:14:15] had been, I think, accidentally trading illegally, which meant that he [00:14:20] couldn’t buy it. And so he backed out of buying these additional practices [00:14:25] because he just wasn’t in that position. So I managed [00:14:30] to sweep in and buy Hazelmere. It wasn’t, you know, I didn’t I [00:14:35] didn’t personally go looking for it, but I know full well that if JP has [00:14:40] done his due diligence and says it’s a it’s a good opportunity, then God [00:14:45] damn it, I knew that it would be a good opportunity and it really was. So I, [00:14:50] I bought it unseen, put a deposit down on it, met the old boy and [00:14:55] and that was it. And that was 26, nearly 26 years ago, September [00:15:00] 1999. And it was a really dreary. Didn’t have a [00:15:05] motorised chair, had a pump action chair. He was an ex-army dentist. He [00:15:10] was pretty brutal with his patients. So actually, as this [00:15:15] young kid as I was, it was it was really I mean, it I didn’t find it easy, but in hindsight, it was [00:15:20] relatively easy to go in and impress the patients because I truly [00:15:25] gave us stuff. And, you know, I’m my aim was to [00:15:30] provide gentle, great quality dentistry and it just grew from there, really. [00:15:35]

Payman Langroudi: So you said when I asked you about what in your childhood informed [00:15:40] kind of the person you’ve become. You said it was stuff after your childhood. Really? That. Yeah, [00:15:45] that it was it was it in this phase?

Barry Oulton: Yeah. So I [00:15:50] bought Hazelmere, I was married, and when I bought it, my eldest [00:15:55] daughter had literally was turning one and um, yeah. [00:16:00] So I ran that my, my wife, who had met in an aerobics class, [00:16:05] my, my, my wife, um, supported me through that, but but, um, like, [00:16:10] I thought life was pretty good. I bought my what I thought at the time was my dream house. Life [00:16:15] was good. I was I was working hard. I started a squat practice in Tower Hill [00:16:20] in London. I bought another practice, um, in hazelmere and moved it to [00:16:25] me. I was working too hard seven days a week, so I actually basically [00:16:30] gave the squat practice to my. He was a friend at the time, but [00:16:35] I was there was an equal distribution of the effort. And so I just [00:16:40] gifted him and said, you take it on and he’s still there and he’s made a phenomenal success of it. [00:16:45] But what that did is that that began to give me some life work balance. Um, [00:16:50] and then I found out that my wife was having a two year affair with a friend of mine, and. [00:16:55] Whoa. Yeah, that was the point that I, uh. Yeah, that [00:17:00] was a massive, massive trauma, to be honest. It was, um. I [00:17:05] remind you that I said when I was, people said, what do you want to be? And I said, I [00:17:10] want to be a dad.

Barry Oulton: And so I had two amazing young kids, probably. How old are they then? [00:17:15] Six and three. Something like that. So the affair had started when my youngest was just [00:17:20] one. And she was like, yeah, you can see them whenever you want them. And I was like, no [00:17:25] way. I’ve seen a friend just go through this. I said, I will leave [00:17:30] my dream home when I get a legal document that says, I’ve got my children 50 over 50. And [00:17:35] what a blessing to be a dentist, because I had friends down here [00:17:40] in the South that commute. Hazem is a big commuter town and these guys are working five days [00:17:45] a week getting the train at 632, the 632 from Hazelmere [00:17:50] up to Waterloo and getting home at 9:00 at night. And so these guys [00:17:55] work frigging hard during the week, don’t really see anybody. You know, I did it two days [00:18:00] a week when I had the London practice. I’d leave in the dark when everybody was asleep. I’d come home [00:18:05] in the dark when everybody was asleep. But as a dentist with a practice that was ten minutes away from home, [00:18:10] I can be as flexible as I like because I own the damn thing. So I said, I want my kids 5050 [00:18:15] took a year, uh, of abuse. I would get ice cold water poured [00:18:20] on me in the middle of the night, told to leave the house.

Barry Oulton: I was attacked three times. It was pretty horrific. [00:18:25] But at the end of it, um, there was this one time where, you [00:18:30] know, there was a knife pulled and I got a phone call from a lawyer saying, you don’t know what’s happened, but [00:18:35] they’ve agreed to you having the kids 5050. And so that was the moment that [00:18:40] I went and became a single dad 50% of the time. Slept on a floor [00:18:45] and a flat for six months because literally they took me to the absolute cleaners and [00:18:50] I was kind of damaged and broken. I got into a relationship with a, um, a particularly [00:18:55] very good looking nutter. Uh, that took me. Took me down. Uh, every [00:19:00] other weekend I was daddy, and every other weekend it was crazy, crazy [00:19:05] party land. And I. I realised it just wasn’t working. It wasn’t good. I found [00:19:10] out that my youngest daughter was really hurting herself, self-harming, but kind of at the age [00:19:15] of six and seven, pinching herself and bleeding. And I was like, I’ve got to sort my shit out. I’ve got to get out of this relationship. [00:19:20] I’ve got to sort myself out. So that’s when I went and did some personal development. I did some training [00:19:25] with a guy called Tony Robbins and with him, uh, on Thursday, in fact. And this Thursday. [00:19:30]

Payman Langroudi: Right before you move on, I’ve got to ask you some questions about that period. I hope you don’t mind. No, [00:19:35] go for it. But so so, you know, when what was going through your [00:19:40] head regarding your wife, regarding your wife, were you I mean, [00:19:45] was there any element of it that you blamed yourself or did you just think she’s a nutter? [00:19:50] Uh, with.

Barry Oulton: My wife at the time, I felt very much cuckolded because this [00:19:55] guy would come to our front door with his designs for my website. And [00:20:00] that was a complete ruse to determine whether I was in or not. If I was in, I’d go. I brought you some designs, [00:20:05] and I’d be turning to my wife. Go, what a what? A good bloke comes out of his way to come and share with us [00:20:10] what a good bloke. No, he was, he was knocking on the door to see if he could knock her [00:20:15] up if I wasn’t there. So. I built, I beat myself up for [00:20:20] being naive and stupid. But no, I at this point in time, I [00:20:25] felt very affected by it all. Not not realising [00:20:30] that that was my doing to feel affected. Right. And I thought, [00:20:35] to be fair, I thought that all the time that I was with my ex-wife, I [00:20:40] thought that she had problems. She had a very tough childhood and I was I thought I was kind of like knight [00:20:45] in shining armour, not realising that I had my own healing, to [00:20:50] do my own stuff that I needed to go through. And so once I started this [00:20:55] personal development journey. I started to realise, you know, I felt that, [00:21:00] you know, for the first, probably 2 or 3 years of this whole thing breaking down and [00:21:05] this horrible experience of trying to defend and go through court because [00:21:10] they were trying to take everything.

Barry Oulton: And I felt very I felt the victim. [00:21:15] And then when I did some personal development and then I started to learn my NLP [00:21:20] and became a master practitioner and a hypnotherapist. What I realised is [00:21:25] that in hindsight, I was 50% responsible for the breakdown of the marriage. [00:21:30] You know, I, I didn’t I didn’t make her go and have an affair. But clearly, [00:21:35] you know, the, the scenario and the situation was created by us both [00:21:40] where we made choices. And, you know, her choice was to do that. So [00:21:45] it’s I wouldn’t be who I am today without that. That that was a horrible three years. But [00:21:50] it is apart from my children and Chloe. That’s the best thing that ever happened [00:21:55] to me because it’s made me who I am. It was the biggest trauma, but [00:22:00] also the biggest gift. And anybody you speak to, right, who’s been through any [00:22:05] level of trauma will ultimately say that at a period of time, they turn around and go, it’s [00:22:10] one of the best things that happened, because if you focus on growth, if [00:22:15] you focus on, you know, finding the silver lining in something, then actually [00:22:20] the silver lining is by far away outweighs the trauma that you felt at the time. [00:22:25]

Payman Langroudi: Not to mention you’ve been bridging the gap between Tony Robbins and [00:22:30] dentists since that time, right? You know, like you’re looking, looking for, looking for [00:22:35] the, um, personal development for yourself has led to who you’ve become now, right?

Barry Oulton: That’s exactly [00:22:40] right.

Payman Langroudi: Personal development for dentists. You know.

Barry Oulton: There are people out there at the moment that are [00:22:45] doing Tony esque things, trying to make an awful lot of money [00:22:50] in a short period of time. And, you know, I keep banging on the fact that, you know, I’m here for 20 years. [00:22:55] You know, my my whole aim is to my success [00:23:00] is based on my clients success, which is why, you know, not [00:23:05] to speak about my program, but my entry level program is a 100% [00:23:10] money back guarantee, because the one thing I’ve noticed is that [00:23:15] it’s very hard to have dentists understand and accept when it comes to communication, [00:23:20] that there’s a lot that they don’t know. You know, you speak to any dentist and they think they’re bloody [00:23:25] good at communicating. And they spend a lot of time and energy on learning their clinical [00:23:30] skills or upskilling themselves clinically. And not many really spend much time [00:23:35] and energy or finances on upskilling themselves with their communication skills. [00:23:40] And so, you know, I, I have quite a bold guarantee and [00:23:45] that is I, I have a 12 week program. Ultimately I run a 1 [00:23:50] to 3 year mastermind. Right. But that’s a high ticket, high value. And I [00:23:55] openly say that unless you know and love me, no one’s going to spend nearly 50 grand [00:24:00] with me to be with me for a year. If you know and love me, then it’s money [00:24:05] well spent, right? So I have an entry level program which is a fraction of the cost. It’s 12 [00:24:10] weeks, and I guarantee that you will double that investment in me within the 12 weeks, [00:24:15] or you get your money back, or I work with you for free until you do.

Barry Oulton: And [00:24:20] nobody, nobody has ever wanted their money back because typically [00:24:25] they more than double their income. I’ve got one guy who’s worked with me now for ten weeks, [00:24:30] and his income is up by 50%. And it’s just by implementing [00:24:35] really sensible, simple things about communication and about processes and [00:24:40] about the patient journey that work wherever you are, whatever sort of [00:24:45] practice you’ve got, whatever sort of dentistry you do, and it’s just a no brainer. So [00:24:50] for me, yes, I want to bridge that gap. I want to bring communication, personal development. [00:24:55] I want to bring all of that into dentistry, but I want it to benefit everybody. So for me, [00:25:00] I believe it’s symbiotic. It benefits the patient, mostly because [00:25:05] what I help people do is to help their patients make their best choices. But [00:25:10] by not shying away from having conversations, by asking specific [00:25:15] questions that I’ve developed and devised in order to what we call future Pace [00:25:20] patients. And they basically write their own treatment plans. And so rather than it being [00:25:25] hi, how are you? How are your teeth? Any problems? Which is what the majority of dentists [00:25:30] do. And then they’re looking for where they can use their new skills. They’re [00:25:35] looking for maybe a bonding case or they’re looking for whitening, but they can’t find a way of having [00:25:40] those conversations. So what they often do is they will market to people that [00:25:45] are knowingly wanting to get that kind of stuff and they attract them. But in actual fact, [00:25:50] the majority of the income that a dentist can make is from their existing patient [00:25:55] base.

Barry Oulton: They just need to ask them the right questions. And those patients end up basically [00:26:00] giving the opinion that they want white, they want straight, they want confidence, they want [00:26:05] everything that these dentists are learning to do. It’s just these dentists don’t know how to find that out from [00:26:10] their existing patient base. So that’s what I help them do as I help them to really have [00:26:15] different, easy, comfortable conversations with patients. Get [00:26:20] them to systemise how they’re delivering their dentistry, how they’re delivering their treatment plans. So [00:26:25] we deliver three treatment plans to every single patient colour coded. So it’s very obvious what [00:26:30] must be done, what could be done, what’s nice to be done. And then we let the patients start [00:26:35] to make their own choices. So just works an absolute treat. And in amongst that. [00:26:40] There’s a lot of personal development. Now, I can’t sell at this stage. I don’t [00:26:45] feel that I can sell a training course on personal development, because very few dentists [00:26:50] will put their hand up and go, yeah, I’d like some personal development. Unless they got a big trauma, like a divorce. I mean, I was that right? [00:26:55] I didn’t think I needed personal development. I was doing all right. Thanks very much, mate. Then the shit hit [00:27:00] the fan and I was like, I need to sort myself out. So I went and had personal development. [00:27:05] But what I know is that when I’m working with clients in the mastermind, like [00:27:10] I’ve got my mastermind coming up in three weeks and the two days that I’ve put together, it’s [00:27:15] phenomenal.

Barry Oulton: And it’s all about personal development because in order to help them [00:27:20] improve their business, I have to help them improve, particularly their their mindset, their limiting [00:27:25] beliefs, their attitudes give them tools and understanding of how they can [00:27:30] change their results. And by ultimately you want to get different. Everybody wants different results, right? [00:27:35] Everybody wants different results. Yeah. And so nobody really wants to change their [00:27:40] behaviours. What we have to do is change the interaction that caused the behaviours. So [00:27:45] it’s their physiology, their body, their thoughts and it’s the the language [00:27:50] that they use both internally and externally. It’s called the triad. And if we help them to understand the triad, [00:27:55] show them how it works, give them an example, take them through that example, completely comfortable, [00:28:00] and then giving them a formula of how they can do that themselves at home. Then they start to empower [00:28:05] themselves. So the feedback I get from these guys that I work with is, you know, yes, I made the money, [00:28:10] but that wasn’t the biggest change. The biggest change is me, my mindset, my attitude. And I’m like, that’s [00:28:15] what I wanted. But you can’t really. I don’t think in this day and age, [00:28:20] it’s particularly easy to sell that as a concept that somebody’s going to purchase. They will [00:28:25] consider a money back guarantee of doubling your investment because you’ve got nothing [00:28:30] to lose. And then when I deliver it, they get a whole lot more out of it. So it’s, [00:28:35] um, sell them what they want and then give them what they need.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:28:40] Barry, you know, I’m, I, we run some education courses as well, you know, composite [00:28:45] bonding course. I do a whitening course. And education [00:28:50] for me, it’s a funny thing because, you know, the execution [00:28:55] of the skills. Is so much more important than the skills itself. [00:29:00] And, you know, like you say, hey, pay, how [00:29:05] am I going to lose weight? Well, okay, eat less crap and go to the gym, right? [00:29:10] We all know that. But it’s the execution that [00:29:15] ends up being the difficult thing. So, you know when when we have our courses, I [00:29:20] can sometimes see, you know, from the. From the work. Sometimes you can [00:29:25] see who’s going to be better and who’s going to be worse. But what are some like when you when you’ve [00:29:30] got people you’re teaching people. What are signs that your delegate is coachable [00:29:35] or isn’t coachable? I’d like to hear about the problem ones. So ones the ones that are difficult [00:29:40] to coach.

Barry Oulton: Um. What a great question. [00:29:45] I would say that everybody ultimately [00:29:50] I believe everybody is coachable. I think there are some that are [00:29:55] resistant. I would say that.

Payman Langroudi: And for the sake [00:30:00] of the argument, for the sake of the argument, you, the person who bought your course by [00:30:05] by his very nature as a self-selecting someone who’s trying to improve. But sometimes that person might get you involved [00:30:10] with the whole practice, and you get someone in the practice who’s resistant.

Barry Oulton: Generally, people [00:30:15] that are buying my course are not looking to improve themselves. They’re looking to improve their their results, [00:30:20] their business results.

Payman Langroudi: You know what I’m saying is, did you sometimes have to teach [00:30:25] or inspire someone who wasn’t the person who actually applied to be coached by [00:30:30] you like a team member, you know? Yeah, it’s someone who’s that person [00:30:35] might even be completely negative towards you because they didn’t ask to be trained in the first [00:30:40] place.

Barry Oulton: Yeah. Of course. Yeah. There’s I mean that’s common. So as part of our mastermind. [00:30:45] So the mastermind is I mean, I’ve got this sounds really [00:30:50] blowing smoke up my own backside, but it’s just really beautifully put together. [00:30:55] So we take the 12 months and we break it down into four monthly [00:31:00] sections, right? And every four months we have a two day live. [00:31:05] Where I get everybody together. Just a mastermind as their partners, whether that’s life or business, [00:31:10] and their PMS are invited to in a room in London. And we run the two days [00:31:15] and then that’s, that’s the four months we break the four months [00:31:20] down into two eight week cycles and the eight week cycles, we have an overriding topic, like leadership [00:31:25] or sales or HR or, um, whatever, overriding. [00:31:30] But then we’re working on their bespoke program. In [00:31:35] the middle of those two eight weeks, we run a team training day, and so you get to bring [00:31:40] your whole team on the day to experience. And that’s ultimately where we get [00:31:45] to break down. Part of mastermind is we have an online portal with all the training videos. So [00:31:50] they get me teaching them via video, which they can access whenever [00:31:55] they want. But where we really start to break down, um, limiting beliefs and concerns [00:32:00] and worries and it’s always fear based.

Barry Oulton: It’s always they’re fearful of something is [00:32:05] when we get into a face to face interaction. So we ran our [00:32:10] last one just a month or so ago in Manchester. We had [00:32:15] 70 just under 80 delegates. All their teams came and overwhelmingly [00:32:20] they all walked away going, oh my God, that was amazing. And that’s because then I’m able to begin to [00:32:25] expose them to some of these things that help them. So we talk about, you know, elements [00:32:30] of confidence. So yes, there’s resistance. There’s resistance from people that [00:32:35] don’t know what it is, that don’t know what to expect, that are fearful that they’re going to have [00:32:40] to stand up and talk. And so the first thing we get out there is there’s no role play. There’s no [00:32:45] icky situations. Um, and then having given the opportunity, I’m [00:32:50] able to help. I would say 99% of the people overcome their limiting beliefs [00:32:55] and their worries and actually enjoy the experience. There is always going to be somebody [00:33:00] that is kind of dragged along because they’re part of the team, that just [00:33:05] because of whatever is going on for them, they just don’t want to engage [00:33:10] or they they feel that it’s just not for them. But that is it is very rare.

Payman Langroudi: All [00:33:15] right. But then go through how what are the common limiting beliefs that people bring up [00:33:20] and what do you do to get over them.

Barry Oulton: Perfect. Okay. So [00:33:25] fundamentally for all human beings, the two [00:33:30] most common limiting beliefs that almost all other beliefs filter down to. [00:33:35] Or that I won’t be loved and I’m not good enough. Now [00:33:40] I don’t, I don’t unless I’m doing some 1 to 1 coaching. I don’t really exercise [00:33:45] into that area because that stuff that you would do therapeutically, [00:33:50] which I’ve done, you know, I used to do Breakthrough Days, so I’d take a [00:33:55] practice owner and I’d do an eight hour, 8 to 9 hour day with them where I’d help them with [00:34:00] limiting beliefs. We’d do Gestalt therapy, something called timeline release, and we’d get rid of these [00:34:05] limiting beliefs. But there are lots of surface beliefs above those limiting [00:34:10] beliefs, like, uh, selling is a dirty word or nobody. [00:34:15] I had limiting beliefs around money. I had limiting beliefs around wealth. So [00:34:20] I had beliefs like, uh, rich people are bastards and only become rich by crapping [00:34:25] on other people. That was a belief that I had. I had a belief that [00:34:30] money doesn’t grow on trees. I had a belief that money is the root of all evil. [00:34:35] And then when I did my training and did some psychology work, and I did my [00:34:40] some elements of Gestalt therapy, what I understood was that they weren’t my [00:34:45] beliefs. I believed them, but they came from witnessing things as a child. [00:34:50] And so I’ve created this. It’s called the Wealth Mindset discovery. 72 [00:34:55] questions My clients get to answer score from 1 to 10. Anything [00:35:00] over a four you want to start to deal with because they’re all limiting beliefs. And [00:35:05] there’s six questions that will get rid of a limiting belief, which is crazy. But when you go [00:35:10] through the questions and you ask yourself, you then start to challenge that limited belief because you don’t know [00:35:15] that you’ve got it because it’s there. It’s in you, right?

Payman Langroudi: Just what are they? What are they? My [00:35:20] limiting belief is I’m not, uh, worth, uh, the prices that [00:35:25] this practice charges. So what are the six questions?

Barry Oulton: Uh, okay, so I’m [00:35:30] not worth what the practice charges. Well, firstly, it would depend [00:35:35] who that is. Who setting the fees, and to a degree, what the fees [00:35:40] are. Right. Because clearly there will be occasion [00:35:45] where fees are rarely, but occasionally there’s going to be fees that are [00:35:50] ridiculously high. And it’s then not just about worth, but [00:35:55] ultimately it still is. So, um, there’s this thing called a Cartesian equation. [00:36:00] And one of the questions, I mean, I’ll go, I can go through them all. But one of them that really [00:36:05] plays with your head is what am I afraid will happen [00:36:10] if I was to not believe that belief? So the first thing is, what [00:36:15] is the belief that’s holding me back? What’s the limiting belief? Why do I believe that so effectively? [00:36:20] You present the evidence to yourself? Well, I believe that because blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. [00:36:25] What am I afraid would happen if I was to not believe that? Now that’s the [00:36:30] bit that people are like, well, hang on a minute. Let me think about that for a second, because [00:36:35] then you’re what you’re doing is you’re challenging the fact that your subconscious mind, to a degree, is protecting you from [00:36:40] something. So you you uphold this belief subconsciously because [00:36:45] if you didn’t believe it, you fear something else would happen. So. So I give you an example. So [00:36:50] I had a belief that rich people were bastards and they they only came bastards by crapping [00:36:55] on people.

Barry Oulton: So what is my limiting belief? That’s the limiting belief. Why do I believe that? Well, I believe [00:37:00] that because when I was a kid, my dad had this friend who was incredibly [00:37:05] wealthy and absolutely took my dad and three other guys [00:37:10] to the cleaners, you know, he he ordered, um, [00:37:15] himself an 82 foot yacht. We’d been sailing since we were four. He [00:37:20] said to my dad and two other guys, actually, three of them. Look, if you, um, [00:37:25] I’ll pay you guys to to to take it from Southampton to the Greek islands. [00:37:30] You sail it over, we’ll get chartered. I’ll pay for your flights back and your accommodation there. I’ll do [00:37:35] this, that and the other. And, um, basically, they busted [00:37:40] their asses to get this boat to the Greek islands where they were arrested, [00:37:45] locked up. And this gentleman, Mr. Jackson, had [00:37:50] basically completely shafted them, didn’t pay for anything, didn’t do anything. And so I witnessed [00:37:55] this kind of situation with my dad and my dad, you know, I [00:38:00] guess muttering and conversations with my mum that rich people are bastards. And so that was [00:38:05] my belief, even though I’ve met many wealthy people who are philanthropists [00:38:10] and they’re generous and they’re amazing. It was a belief, right. And so it [00:38:15] was holding me back. I owned my practice at the time, and it held me back [00:38:20] because I feared becoming wealthy.

Barry Oulton: And so the next question is, [00:38:25] what do I fear? What what what would I fear if I was to [00:38:30] not believe that belief? And I thought about it and I went, well, if I was to not believe [00:38:35] that rich people are bastards, then I could become rich. And what I fear is that my dad might think that I’m a bastard [00:38:40] and write me off. And that was the underlying root belief. [00:38:45] The next question is, do I believe that? And the answer is, of [00:38:50] course not. Of course, I don’t believe that if I became wealthy, my dad would write me off. [00:38:55] Whose belief was that? Anyway? That was my dad’s belief, not mine. So what [00:39:00] is a new and empowering belief? That is your own. And that is, I can work [00:39:05] incredibly hard. I can become as wealthy as I like because that allows me to give back more, [00:39:10] to support more. And that includes my dad. And my dad would love me and be proud of me regardless. And [00:39:15] that one change in belief then allowed me to start to work in a [00:39:20] way that I was generating wealth I didn’t fear. I feared having a nice [00:39:25] car because patients would reject me. I feared talking about going on a nice holiday because patients [00:39:30] and I had the evidence because I decorate the the practice and pay some, the odd patient would [00:39:35] come in and go, oh, so, um, this is where our money’s going, is it? Now what [00:39:40] you focus on grows, right? So let’s say I’ve got 500 patients that come through the door and one says, [00:39:45] oh, so this is where my money’s going.

Barry Oulton: It’s the only one I remember because [00:39:50] it feeds that limiting belief. Because to have a belief, it’s like a tabletop. And to stand up, you need legs [00:39:55] and you need legs of evidence. And so you look for the legs of evidence subconsciously. And you find [00:40:00] it and you go see. So I’ll give you another example that played really well. Right? I had [00:40:05] a limiting belief that patients only wanted the cheapest possible dentistry. They [00:40:10] didn’t want private, they only wanted NHS. They wouldn’t choose private [00:40:15] over NHS and nobody would pay me £500 for a crown. That was my belief. And [00:40:20] so Doris would come in with a fractured lower left six. And I’d say, Doris, [00:40:25] I could crown that tooth, which is best, but I could fill it, which is cheaper [00:40:30] now. I didn’t realise at the time that my language pattern the word but [00:40:35] negates what comes before it. And so even though in my head [00:40:40] I’d gone look, we could crown it and it’s best. And then I offered the filling. Every patient [00:40:45] went, yeah, okay, let’s fill it. That became the evidence for me to go see. Nobody [00:40:50] wants private dentistry.

Barry Oulton: Nobody wants to crown the teeth. Nobody’s going to pay £500 for a crown. Then [00:40:55] I learned some Milton Erickson patterns in terms of language skills. And I learned these [00:41:00] things like cause and effect and all sorts of different things that I learned. And I learned that the word but [00:41:05] negates what comes before it. So I changed my language. Doris. I could fill that [00:41:10] which is cheaper, but I could crown it which is best. And my patients went, [00:41:15] okay, Barry, we’ll crown it. And I was like, Holy crap, I have been the problem, not my patients. [00:41:20] And so once I started to deal with my limiting beliefs and you can do limiting [00:41:25] beliefs around relationships, around yourself, around. The list that I’ve got [00:41:30] is around wealth and money and attitude towards towards money. Once you start [00:41:35] to remove these limiting beliefs, it frees you up to be making better [00:41:40] choices. I’m now if you imagine I saw ten patients and and nine out [00:41:45] of them chose the filling, I now know that I did not serve them well enough because I [00:41:50] put them off the crown, knowing that the crown was the best. I didn’t put them off the crown consciously, [00:41:55] but my own limiting beliefs prevented them from [00:42:00] choosing the best because they didn’t hear me say the crown is best because I negated it subconsciously [00:42:05] for them with the word. But it’s crazy, right? Mm.

Payman Langroudi: Very [00:42:10] interesting.

Barry Oulton: Well, I mean.

Payman Langroudi: That’s very interesting.

Barry Oulton: One of the simple things is teaching people [00:42:15] language patterns, teaching people how to have some conversations and words that impact people [00:42:20] and how you can use that. Now, for me, it has to [00:42:25] be based on evidence based dentistry. It’s got to be based on integrity. You know, if I believe [00:42:30] truly that the Crown is the best option, I owe it to my patient to present [00:42:35] it in a way that allows them to know, understand and believe the [00:42:40] same thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Looking at your work, [00:42:45] I mean, when I say work, your your social media presence, the [00:42:50] there’s a, there’s a big element of your sort of way that you look at [00:42:55] this as service and blowing the socks off your patients. Yeah. And [00:43:00] and that being the focus and that being the focus, which is I think very important, [00:43:05] you know, um, in, in a similar way to, you know, you’re saying you say something like, uh, [00:43:10] people aren’t after teeth whitening thereafter. What, it gets them to have a white [00:43:15] smile, you know, the confidence and but in that same way, um, this [00:43:20] question of service. And for me, it’s almost like [00:43:25] being of service. What can you tell me? You know, around that, I mean. [00:43:30] Yeah, okay. Knock people’s socks off, do you is that is that something that is is [00:43:35] I mean, for me, it’s something that being of service is doing the right thing at the right [00:43:40] time rather than a tactic.

Barry Oulton: So the right thing at the right time. [00:43:45] I totally agree with that. And part, I believe, of being of service is determining [00:43:50] or helping that person determine what is the right thing at the right time for them. Because [00:43:55] let’s let’s assume that Doris comes in with a fractured lower F6. [00:44:00] And I know that the absolute best. So I’ve asked him my 20 year question. [00:44:05] So our future pastor at some point where she told me that it’s really important that she doesn’t lose her teeth. [00:44:10] This is really important that she keeps her own teeth. She comes in with a fractured lower [00:44:15] left. Six more than 40% of the tooth is missing. It’s got an old amalgam, and it’s got secondary decay. [00:44:20] And based on the fact that she’s told me she wants to keep them for as long as humanly possible. [00:44:25] I know that the Crown is the absolute best choice clinically. But [00:44:30] it might just be that at that point in time. Her [00:44:35] cars crashed. She didn’t have insurance or she simply doesn’t have the money. So [00:44:40] whilst it’s the best for the tooth and it’s best for her in the long run, [00:44:45] maybe at that point in time it just simply isn’t the best for her [00:44:50] and her, um, ecology and her environment. And so part [00:44:55] of my job, I believe, is to find out what’s right for her and then [00:45:00] provide a solution. So being in service, I agree, is doing the right thing [00:45:05] at the right time. And in order to do that, you have to ask different [00:45:10] questions from what we were taught to ask or not taught to ask at university. [00:45:15] So yeah, when you say but.

Payman Langroudi: But how do you teach it is my question, really, [00:45:20] how do you how do you teach that. Because that’s it’s really it’s very bespoke to the moment.

Barry Oulton: No, it’s super [00:45:25] bloody easy.

Payman Langroudi: Go on. So explain to me. So how do you make it click for someone [00:45:30] to, to have their focus a service rather than, you know, the usual thing. [00:45:35]

Barry Oulton: Okay. So first and foremost. Number one is it’s you have [00:45:40] to be completely focussed on the patient. Right. And so [00:45:45] it’s a layered approach. Number one is in order for your patient to make the best choice and [00:45:50] decision, they need to be in the best state that they could possibly be in. And [00:45:55] that’s an emotional state. I. I’m not keen on my patients making major decisions [00:46:00] when they’re in pain. Or when they are highly emotionally charged. Because [00:46:05] I believe that you will make very different decisions than when you are [00:46:10] in a positive state. Right. So firstly, I will do what I can to help my [00:46:15] patients be in a positive frame of mind. So I will build rapport. I’ll build rapport by [00:46:20] being like them physiologically. I’ll build rapport by particularly being like them with their [00:46:25] tonality. So if they speak slowly, I will speak slower. Why? Because [00:46:30] we like people who we are like, and the more I can be like them, or [00:46:35] the less I can be unlike them, the more comfortable they feel. Secondly, [00:46:40] I’m going to truly find out what’s important to them by asking specific questions. And [00:46:45] it’s not about today. It’s about it’s about 20 years and a day. Or if they’re 60, it’s [00:46:50] about ten years. And today. And so by asking a 20 year question, by future [00:46:55] pacing them. And let me ask you, if you don’t mind me asking Payman, how old are you?

Payman Langroudi: 50 [00:47:00] okay.

Barry Oulton: Two nice delay on the two. [00:47:05] So Payman, let me ask you right in 52. Right. [00:47:10] In terms of your dental health, in terms of [00:47:15] your dental health, in terms of your dental function and in terms of your dental appearance. [00:47:20] So those three things, right, your health, your function and your appearance. What’s important to you about [00:47:25] those three things in, let’s say, let’s say 20 years time, let’s [00:47:30] say Payman is 72. He’s fit. He’s healthy. [00:47:35] And let’s say that you are, you know, still doing elements [00:47:40] of what you’re doing. You’re loving life. What’s important to you at the age of 72, what’s [00:47:45] important to you about your Dental appearance, your dental health, and your dental function?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I can eat [00:47:50] my food. I can smile at my grandkids and so forth.

Barry Oulton: Okay, so [00:47:55] eat my food and smile at my grandkids so you can smile at your grandkids when you got teeth or not. So when you smile [00:48:00] at your grandkids. Tell me about the appearance of them at 72. Do [00:48:05] they look exactly as they are now? Are they? Are they healthy? And they do [00:48:10] they look fresh? Do they look good? Tell me.

Payman Langroudi: I hope they look [00:48:15] kind of near to what they look now.

Barry Oulton: Okay, great. So kind of. So does that mean to say, can I just [00:48:20] ask you, does that mean that right now you’re happy with the way that they look happy with the the position, [00:48:25] the orientation, the colour, the shape, the not chip, they’re not worn. They’re not damaged. Anything like that. [00:48:30] All good.

Payman Langroudi: Are you actually asking me because I recently had [00:48:35] a I recently had an accident.

Barry Oulton: Okay, so look [00:48:40] what I’ve done. If we think about it right, what I’ve done is I’ve. [00:48:45] The idea is you’re always playing with pictures and images [00:48:50] in people’s heads. And so what I want to do is if I just asked [00:48:55] you about today. Hi, how are your teeth? Any problems? You may have said I got a chip, [00:49:00] but you may have gone. No. Everything’s fine. I’m all right. But once I [00:49:05] future pace you and I ask you what’s important to you in 20 years time and what’s important [00:49:10] to you about those three things? That that allows me to then have a conversation with [00:49:15] you. If I see any signs of para function, bearing in mind, I think 95% of people para function. If [00:49:20] you para function, if you’re in the 95, which most people are, obviously, then [00:49:25] I’m going to talk to you about protecting your teeth, because if you want them to look as they are now para, functionally, [00:49:30] they’re never going to. So we would also talk about the fact that, you know, it’s worth [00:49:35] considering maintaining the whiteness of them. So it might be that you don’t want [00:49:40] to particularly go any whiter. But if you want to keep them as they are, I’m going to talk to you about a maintenance program [00:49:45] where you can maintain the whiteness by doing this initial [00:49:50] thing and then periodically keeping it topped up.

Barry Oulton: And so it starts to open up conversations [00:49:55] about other things. Right. It makes it super easy. This is [00:50:00] why people are I mean, I’ve got Andrew his incomes up 50%. Why? Because [00:50:05] he’s using simple, simple things that are easy to do that I teach him how to have [00:50:10] the conversation with a new patient and an existing patient. He goes away and does it. He comes back and he goes, [00:50:15] bloody hell, it worked. It’s like, yeah, it works, right? Because we’re all human beings. And when [00:50:20] you ask the right questions, you start to get the right answers. And I think at university, [00:50:25] you know, we were taught to be Dental firefighters. Our mission was to [00:50:30] find a fire in the mouth and put it out. And actually we weren’t taught [00:50:35] to sit down and say, you know what’s important to you? You know what’s important to you about this? How would [00:50:40] you like things to be? Let me find out a little bit more. And the worst thing that happens is [00:50:45] that you get an answer that goes, well, I don’t know nothing, I don’t care. Nobody [00:50:50] doesn’t not care.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Barry Oulton: And so, you know [00:50:55] we end up giving that’s why we give three treatment plans immediate which is read preventative which is [00:51:00] orange and elective which is green. And I don’t mind whether people do the treatment or not. What [00:51:05] I mind is that they’ve been given the choice and been given the option so that they’re choosing what’s [00:51:10] right for them. Now that to me is service. Invariably, though, 68% [00:51:15] of people say yes to the preventative treatment, which more [00:51:20] than doubles that that that productivity and that time which more than eight x’s [00:51:25] the profit because the fixed costs remain the same. So it has a significant effect [00:51:30] both on the patients are saying yes, they want it, I’m not pushing it. But then the [00:51:35] business just, you know, we quadrupled our turnover simply by [00:51:40] asking the right questions.

Payman Langroudi: That’s very interesting, man. Tell [00:51:45] me if we move on to darker times. I know we’ve talked about some dark times already, but. [00:51:50] We like to talk about errors on this pod. Yes. So from that [00:51:55] black box thinking, you know, we want to learn from each other’s errors rather [00:52:00] than having to all make them ourselves. What can you what comes to mind when I say clinical errors? [00:52:05] What can you think of? Oh God, I don’t know. So the first rather than the.

Barry Oulton: First [00:52:10] thing that jumps to mind, of course, was believing the, uh, man [00:52:15] who was acquiring practices for the corporate I sold to and [00:52:20] wasn’t a clinical error, but that was an error in judgement [00:52:25] of a human being and believing the BS that was that I was [00:52:30] told that’s I think that’s the biggest error in dentistry I’ve ever made. [00:52:35] Um, when it comes to clinical stuff, I’m a big fan, so I’ve, I’ve [00:52:40] just done a, a national tour for practice plan, and one of the things that I was presenting [00:52:45] as part of it was black box thinking and was, um, Matthew Said’s [00:52:50] brilliant book that draws a parallel between medicine and aviation [00:52:55] and this attitude of, you know, if we brought that into dentistry, if we brought that into [00:53:00] medicine, then it would be a phenomenal benefit to everybody, particularly the patients. [00:53:05] Um, and so I have this belief. One, one of the NLP presuppositions [00:53:10] is there is no such thing as failure, only feedback. And so [00:53:15] every problem that I’ve ever come across since learning NLP, [00:53:20] I’ve always reframed as a learning opportunity. And [00:53:25] actually I always see it as an opportunity to build raving fans and [00:53:30] knock my patient socks off. And I use that phrase, yes, I use that phrase a lot because [00:53:35] I think when something doesn’t go to plan. That’s one [00:53:40] of the opportunities to really increase the quality of service, because it’s [00:53:45] not so much that something doesn’t work. It’s how you behave when something doesn’t work, [00:53:50] it’s how you discuss it. I, I love a UFC [00:53:55] and that’s obviously not a scrap with Conor McGregor.

Barry Oulton: It’s an upfront contract. [00:54:00] Somebody once told me that a conversation before is [00:54:05] an explanation. A conversation afterwards is an excuse. And that’s [00:54:10] why I will have conversations beforehand with patients about, you know, [00:54:15] what may or may not happen or what may or may not work. I also, this is what I teach [00:54:20] my clients is I also want, where appropriate, I want [00:54:25] my patients to own the problem. It not be mine. Because let’s [00:54:30] let’s give an example. Right. Let’s give an example of a molar Endo. Um, [00:54:35] patient comes in to me for an upper left six. We know [00:54:40] that you know maybe and I love I’m a bit weird, right? I love all sorts of dentistry and I love doing [00:54:45] endo as well. And we know that maybe 35, 40% may have an extra buckle. So [00:54:50] they’ve got four canals. I want my patient to own their biology. So first [00:54:55] and foremost I talk about biology to them. And I say, you know unfortunately [00:55:00] your biology has tripped us up. And that’s why you’ve got the infection [00:55:05] in the tooth. And we know that biology trips us up. Otherwise we wouldn’t have colds and flu. We wouldn’t have [00:55:10] had this goddamn, you know, Corona. Um, that’s biology. [00:55:15] Now I am going to do my absolute level best to work with your biology in the very [00:55:20] best possible way to get the best result. And I know that when we do root [00:55:25] canal therapy, I’m going to look for the fourth canal. I’ve got a CT scan. I’ve got a microscope. [00:55:30]

Barry Oulton: I’m going to do my level best to look for that. Uh, I’m also going to do my best to fill these routes [00:55:35] to the very tip of the canal. And despite my best efforts, around about 5% [00:55:40] of these will not be successful. There’s a 95% success rate, which means [00:55:45] there’s a 5% failure rate. And if your biology trips us up [00:55:50] and maybe there’s an extra canal that we couldn’t see, or maybe there’s a little [00:55:55] tributary that comes off the side of a canal that we couldn’t see. If your biology trips us [00:56:00] up, then I’m going to suggest that we’ve got several options then of moving forward, and that could [00:56:05] be that you go and see the specialist, or it may even be that you end up having to lose [00:56:10] the tooth. So I’ll have a conversation that to a degree [00:56:15] where it’s appropriate, I will talk about the fact that it’s biology that fails. [00:56:20] It’s not me, it’s not the dentistry and it’s not them. It’s [00:56:25] a third party called their biology. And they’re able to separate their thoughts [00:56:30] and feelings about the dentistry and me to the fact that biology can screw us over sometimes [00:56:35] and not everything works. Whereas most dentists and most [00:56:40] dentists patients put the onus of responsibility onto the dentist for [00:56:45] them when things don’t work. And firstly, I don’t think that’s fair [00:56:50] for a lot of the time. You know, if I flat out made a mistake, if I [00:56:55] let’s, God forbid, that I’d ever done anything like this. But let’s say [00:57:00] I misread notes and I took the wrong tooth out for orthodontic reasons. [00:57:05]

Barry Oulton: Somebody somewhere on the planet has done that. They must have done. You [00:57:10] know, you can’t blame biology for that, right? You’ve at that [00:57:15] stage, I guess you’ve probably got to put your hands up and you’ve got to say, do you know what? I got it wrong. [00:57:20] I need to make make it good. And I need, you know, I need to learn from this. And [00:57:25] for me, then it’s a case of how how do we learn from this? How do we improve this? How do we prevent this [00:57:30] from happening again? And so I treat every single one as a [00:57:35] every single issue that I’ve ever had, maybe as a, an opportunity to knock their socks off [00:57:40] and really make, make good. And I’ve found that when we do that, they [00:57:45] become our best referrers better than the people that love me. Is that somebody where [00:57:50] we’ve handled a situation where they’re unhappy and we’ve handled it well, they walk away [00:57:55] with feeling a greater sense of reciprocity, a greater sense of trust. [00:58:00] To the practice as a whole, so I don’t I [00:58:05] feel that I don’t shy away. From any issues or any concerns because [00:58:10] handled in the right way, they can be turned around into something hugely positive. I don’t see as a [00:58:15] problem. So I this is another thing that we do right when I share with people language. So internal [00:58:20] language talk about the triad of your physiology, your what you focus [00:58:25] on, on the language that you use. You can change.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But Barry, before you go, before you go any further, [00:58:30] before you go any further, I’m looking for something that went wrong. Yeah. Specifically the [00:58:35] story that you gave. I don’t know, I don’t know. I don’t know if that actually happened to you or not with the molar [00:58:40] or whatever. Yeah. But that that the way you explain that I definitely.

Barry Oulton: Had a everything’s gone very well. Didn’t [00:58:45] work. I’ve definitely had a molar endo that failed after about 18 months. [00:58:50]

Payman Langroudi: But but not not. What I’m saying is somewhere where you. Maybe the way to think about [00:58:55] this question is your most difficult patient.

Barry Oulton: Oh, my most difficult patient.

Payman Langroudi: Was yeah [00:59:00] where communication broke down rather than rather than where communication was perfect the way you were [00:59:05] saying.

Barry Oulton: Yeah. Well, firstly, it’s never perfect. We’re always doing our best. Right. We’re communication [00:59:10] broke down is without a shadow of a doubt, a recent situation [00:59:15] where a lady who’s English is a [00:59:20] second language, and there was a clear miscommunication [00:59:25] and misunderstanding between what she [00:59:30] wanted to have done, what she said she wanted to have done afterwards, and what she [00:59:35] had elected to have done at the time. And so she had [00:59:40] chosen. So what.

Payman Langroudi: Was it? What was it? What was it? Yeah.

Barry Oulton: So she elected [00:59:45] to have the lower left five crowned at the same time as the six. And [00:59:50] she’d signed the estimates and she’d agreed to it. And there on two separate estimates. [00:59:55] And then because she para functions, which [01:00:00] I knew and she had said she was wearing a [01:00:05] night time guard, but she wasn’t. It created sensitivity in [01:00:10] both of the teeth, which is usual until you’ve maybe dialled it in or, you know, protected [01:00:15] her. And the bottom line is she then flagged saying that she never wanted the five [01:00:20] in the first place. And so that’s a situation that [01:00:25] I’m in, a I’m in a position of thinking, well, you know, I’ve got a [01:00:30] question our systems now because if we’ve colour coded it and we’ve done everything we can, [01:00:35] and she’s claiming that she never wanted it in the first place. What did I miss. Where did that [01:00:40] go wrong? At what point did we not hear her. Because if she genuinely [01:00:45] didn’t want it, we have missed something. And so it’s then looking back. And honestly, [01:00:50] even when I reflect back on that, I can’t think of where we got [01:00:55] something wrong. But we clearly got something wrong because she was not a happy [01:01:00] bunny at the end of it. Now we’ve adjusted. We’ve done everything we needed to. We’ve done everything [01:01:05] we can do. But she she is one of a very few and a very rare, [01:01:10] rare person that has gone. I don’t want to see him again. So [01:01:15] I think even though, you know, I teach communication, it doesn’t make it completely [01:01:20] flawless. It doesn’t make it that you don’t get the odd situation that you, of [01:01:25] course, turn in your, in your, in your bed thinking, Jesus Christ, what can I have done better [01:01:30] there?

Payman Langroudi: But what did you do? Did you give her money back? I actually.

Barry Oulton: Did, what did.

Payman Langroudi: You do?

Barry Oulton: I [01:01:35] gave her, I gave her a complete refund. For all of the work. [01:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, not. Not just. And yet. And yet she doesn’t want to see you anymore. That’s the [01:01:45] that’s the the painful part. Well, I you know.

Barry Oulton: I have to I have [01:01:50] to.

Payman Langroudi: I get it, I get it, I get it. Yeah.

Barry Oulton: I’ve got to accept that. And that’s, it’s a shame because I pride [01:01:55] myself on being able to handle almost all those situations with a win. But [01:02:00] now and again, you know, whether it’s a personal personality clash [01:02:05] or whether it’s just a, you know, maybe she just took an absolute potentially [01:02:10] I mean, she, she seemed to really like me but then took an absolute dislike. We don’t know [01:02:15] what the conversations were at home with with her other half. I mean, you don’t [01:02:20] know what goes on. Right. And so yeah, you know, sometimes you’ve just gotta take [01:02:25] it. I can sit with my hand on my heart and say, I truly believe I did my best. And [01:02:30] then I guess sometimes it just ain’t going to work out with everybody.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:02:35] Barry, you know, the running a practice, running a successful business, especially [01:02:40] as, you know, a business like yours 25 years, [01:02:45] it’s gone from, you know, where it was to when you sold it. Things are changing [01:02:50] all the time in, in that process, right? I mean, I see it as myself with with ours, [01:02:55] like, you set a new target and it’s almost scary for everyone, including me. And [01:03:00] then years later, you look back and think, God, I was scared of that target, you know, [01:03:05] like, but what what are some hints you would give some, some tips and hints around [01:03:10] team’s recruitment keeping people happy. I find one of [01:03:15] the things in Dental practices is a real issue is that progression is quite difficult. It’s quite. There’s [01:03:20] loads of dentists who say things to me like, I want a nurse who doesn’t want to progress, [01:03:25] which is awful in a way, isn’t it? That’s the kind of person you want.

Barry Oulton: Yeah, [01:03:30] I’ve I’ve always been keen on your thoughts. I’ve always been keen on people that do [01:03:35] want to progress. I, I see it as a compliment when they leave. So I’ve had [01:03:40] three hygienists leave, two of them to go and become dentists. [01:03:45] Um, and one of them I support now she’s in her final year at Leeds, [01:03:50] and then I had another hygienist leave where I supported her and helped [01:03:55] her in buying and setting up her own practice. Now, what that does bring is it brings [01:04:00] the issue of having to recruit again. But I find [01:04:05] that the sense of achievement and the sense of community and the [01:04:10] building of that relationship is far stronger than having somebody that doesn’t [01:04:15] want to progress, because I genuinely believe that I got [01:04:20] so much more out of those people when they worked with me than I would have done [01:04:25] if I’d have kept somebody that that didn’t want to progress. And so I’m [01:04:30] surrounded by people that want to progress. I think the benefit of people being [01:04:35] uniquely different is that they want to progress at different rates. [01:04:40] So I’ve got a dental nurse I’m working with that kind of wants [01:04:45] to just stay where she is for the next few years. But I’m still supporting [01:04:50] him progressing because she’s done her impressions. She’s just [01:04:55] qualified in her radiography. She is now doing more treatment, [01:05:00] presentation, and so she’s progressing within that role and upskilling herself, [01:05:05] which means that when she’s ready maybe to step out of that particular role, [01:05:10] she’s got a skill set that will allow her to to move maybe into management or, [01:05:15] or TCO or or whatever, or even I’ve got a dental nurse [01:05:20] that I’m encouraging to go to hygiene therapy school down in Portsmouth. [01:05:25]

Barry Oulton: Um, but yeah, it presents the fact that you’ve got to recruit. I [01:05:30] have a second belief, and I guess having it’s your beliefs that support you, right? My belief is that [01:05:35] by having a progressive attitude and supporting people, then you attract those sort of people. [01:05:40] And I’ve been really blessed with the people that I’ve worked with. [01:05:45] Some. I mean, Claire’s been with me now for 24 years, and she’s done [01:05:50] she’s done all the roles, she’s done everything. But yeah, recruitment [01:05:55] has been an issue in dentistry for a number of years. And. But I also [01:06:00] find that, you know, we help. We’ve got 100% success rate in recruiting associates for [01:06:05] our clients at the moment because we do it differently. And I’m, you know, I’m proud of [01:06:10] that because. You know, a practice that is running the systems that we introduce [01:06:15] is becoming more attractive to an associate that has done my training with me, because they know [01:06:20] that they can serve their patients and make a make a really good income and [01:06:25] have a lot of fun along the way. So marrying those people up is becoming, um, is becoming [01:06:30] more regular and actually really enjoyable. So I think recruitment for the right sort [01:06:35] of practices is not as hard. But I also think location is [01:06:40] a big deal. I’ve got I’ve got practices that are on a coast, and so their pool [01:06:45] and their area to pull from is considerably smaller. It’s [01:06:50] tricky for some people. It’s without a doubt it’s a hard thing, but I think by supporting [01:06:55] the team and creating that environment, you attract a different sort of employee. [01:07:00]

Payman Langroudi: And then what’s your advice to dentists [01:07:05] when they’re thinking of going from NHS to private? Do [01:07:10] you start with the mindset piece?

Barry Oulton: Well, firstly it’s about finding out [01:07:15] why they want to go because the obvious thing you would think [01:07:20] is money. But it’s not. It’s not often the money. I’ve got top money. I’ve got a number [01:07:25] of clients where the money is irrelevant, and that’s the sort of client that I really like, [01:07:30] right? What I like is that it’s about service and that what they want is they want [01:07:35] to be able to improve the quality of the service. They want to improve the [01:07:40] time that they’re with the patient. So first and foremost, it’s finding out why do they want to exit. [01:07:45] And then it is about reframing and helping them reframe it. Because I think a lot of dentists that are [01:07:50] in the NHS struggle with the idea of leaving the NHS because of their sense of [01:07:55] service and their sense of being part of something that they’re providing for people [01:08:00] that they believe may not be able to afford their private fees. And, and [01:08:05] I you know, I believe that there is a demand [01:08:10] and a need for a core service. I believe that it’s been it’s been damaged [01:08:15] and broken for many, many years. But I believe that if if there was a [01:08:20] better way of working it out, it wouldn’t be the way that it’s been run right now. [01:08:25]

Barry Oulton: And I think that is 100% not the fault of the dentist. [01:08:30] It’s not the fault of us. It’s the fault of the providers of that system. So [01:08:35] it’s successive governments. So how do I help them? I support them in [01:08:40] understanding what their real motive is, and then how I can help [01:08:45] them to reframe in their heads the fact that. They can probably do more of [01:08:50] what it is they really want to do, which is improve their quality in their service. If they [01:08:55] are not doing as much NHS now, that might be for them that they don’t do any NHS. [01:09:00] But there’s a lot of a lot of clients that I’ve got. Don’t want to completely [01:09:05] quit the NHS because they believe in being able to provide a service to people that can’t afford [01:09:10] otherwise. So then it’s a case of supporting them and perhaps reducing their commitment to the [01:09:15] NHS and upping their their ability to, to provide private [01:09:20] dentistry, but do it in a way. That enables them [01:09:25] to be very successful as a business as well, because at the end of the day, it’s a business. You’ve [01:09:30] got to make profit, you’ve got to be able to to pay everybody, and you’ve got to be able to turn the lights [01:09:35] on.

Payman Langroudi: Barry, as a as a coach, you come across different types of dentists. [01:09:40] So here we are, April 24th. What’s what’s [01:09:45] going on out there? What are the new conversations out there that are different [01:09:50] now than they were before? What’s what’s the current state of play that you can see?

Barry Oulton: I think [01:09:55] you’re right. I think there are. I think there’s a huge wave at the moment [01:10:00] of younger dentists. Coming out with [01:10:05] high aspirations. Of a [01:10:10] belief that. What they really want to do is ortho bonding, [01:10:15] whitening, cosmetics. And I think a lot of them [01:10:20] end up somewhat disappointed with the reality of what’s going on, which is fundamentally, [01:10:25] there’s a lot of general dentistry that underpins all of that that must [01:10:30] be done. That has to be done. I believe that I’m seeing and forgive. If anybody is [01:10:35] upset by what I’m about to say. I think I’m seeing an awful lot of young dentists qualifying [01:10:40] with very little true hands on experience. With very little [01:10:45] understanding and nurturing in how to handle [01:10:50] the conversations and the communications with patients. It’s [01:10:55] more focussed on the dentistry and the teeth, and even then they’re coming out [01:11:00] of uni with very little experience of doing dentistry [01:11:05] on human beings. And I think that really undermines them. [01:11:10] And actually they, you know, they end up somewhat, um, [01:11:15] scared. I think there’s a lot of younger dentists at the moment practising, [01:11:20] um, you know, being very careful and avoiding certain bits of dentistry for [01:11:25] fear of being for fear of litigation. They call it defensive [01:11:30] dentistry, don’t they? So. I think that is, uh. I think that’s [01:11:35] commonplace. I’m seeing, uh, older dentists [01:11:40] who are toying with retiring and in certain areas, [01:11:45] finding it very difficult to realise the value of what they thought [01:11:50] their practice might be valued at because there are fewer people buying practices. [01:11:55]

Barry Oulton: I’m seeing overridingly. We, we think as a, as [01:12:00] a profession that corporates are huge and that they’re massive and that they own all [01:12:05] sorts. But actually as a percentage of the practices that are owned, corporates own [01:12:10] bugger all. And so the corporates are not as [01:12:15] big as people think they are in terms of relative ownership of practices. I [01:12:20] think independent practices are far higher in numbers, and [01:12:25] I think there’s a lot of unnecessary fear in the profession. [01:12:30] That is a shame, because I see a lot of dentists that don’t enjoy [01:12:35] their dentistry. A good number that are thinking of getting out and changing [01:12:40] dentistry for something else. And I think that’s really sad because I, I [01:12:45] genuinely my mission is my one of my taglines is I help dentists fall [01:12:50] back in love with dentistry. And I think that if you approach it from [01:12:55] a place of service. So you you brought my phrase up. You know, my aim [01:13:00] is to not my patients socks off. And that’s what I open up with a new patient. And I say to them, [01:13:05] you know, my job is is simple. I’ve got one thing to do. And that is my aim is to knock your [01:13:10] socks off. My aim is to make sure that you have the best dental experience [01:13:15] than you’ve ever had. Uh, and that’s what I set the bar at for me, [01:13:20] is to make sure that they have the best experience possible, regardless of the dentistry, [01:13:25] because, you know, anybody can do the dentistry, really.

Barry Oulton: You know, anybody could [01:13:30] get anybody in to do the dentistry, but it’s how you deliver that. It’s, you know, the [01:13:35] inject. So the injection technique that I designed, um, I think, [01:13:40] you know, we’re teaching undergraduates the wrong things. Not all the right things, I should say. [01:13:45] We’re not teaching them the wrong things. I don’t think they’re being taught all of the right things. And [01:13:50] so I think there’s a group of older dentists maybe thinking and struggling to see how [01:13:55] they can exit and get the value out of their 30 years of hard graft, [01:14:00] of being business owners. I think there’s a young, a wave of young dentists who [01:14:05] are full of and there’s a good handful that are overconfident, [01:14:10] that are full of confidence in their capabilities and then maybe struggling [01:14:15] to deliver what it is that they believe they can. But I think overwhelmingly, there’s a [01:14:20] wave of younger dentists that are just very worried about coming in to a profession where they’re told they’re [01:14:25] going to get sued and they’re going to get struck off. And I think the GDC plays [01:14:30] a huge part into that with some of their behaviours and the way that they treat people. And [01:14:35] so I think there’s a lot of fear out there, which is a real shame.

Payman Langroudi: Although I had I had Linda [01:14:40] Cruz on recently and he was saying, we don’t need to worry about the GDC anywhere near as much [01:14:45] as we used to have to worry about the GDC maybe five, six years ago. He [01:14:50] was he was saying that things are getting a lot better in that respect. So I think, you know, it’s funny because that [01:14:55] story hasn’t gone out. No. Yeah, yeah. Um, a [01:15:00] lot of young dentists haven’t heard. I mean, I hadn’t heard it before he told me that. So, you know, [01:15:05] that’s that’s one of them. I’m sure that really stresses people. Yeah. We’re coming to the end of our time. [01:15:10] Um, very, um, I’m going to end it with the usual questions. [01:15:15] Fantasy dinner party?

Barry Oulton: Yes. [01:15:20]

Payman Langroudi: Three guests.

Barry Oulton: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive.

Barry Oulton: So, [01:15:25] um, top of the list, uh, [01:15:30] without a shadow of a doubt would be, um, my mum. Um, [01:15:35] because I was and am and always [01:15:40] have been. A mummy’s boy and my mum [01:15:45] are very unexpectedly passed away without [01:15:50] any. Yeah. Just very suddenly my mum passed away, um, [01:15:55] probably five years ago. It feels like yesterday still, but it’s probably five years ago. [01:16:00] Yeah. There or thereabouts, uh, from a bleed on the brain. And it was very quick [01:16:05] and it was very unexpected. So I would love to have dinner with my mum. Well, [01:16:10] I would love to have. I really would enjoy to have dinner with Tony Robbins. I [01:16:15] have, yeah, I think 90% [01:16:20] of what I’ve done with him and I’ve, you know, I’ve met him. Um, and I’m, I’m [01:16:25] still part of his crew. I’m with him for, you know, five, five [01:16:30] days as of Thursday. But I’d love to be I’d love to have dinner with him. And, [01:16:35] uh, an odd one, because I just think he is one of the most interesting, [01:16:40] articulate and funny guys is I would love to have dinner with [01:16:45] Ricky Gervais. Um, yeah, I think [01:16:50] I think the way that he is not, I just, I think he’s, [01:16:55] you know, when he, when he really starts to, to talk about theology and stuff like that, I find him [01:17:00] fascinating because I resonate with his beliefs, but he’s just so articulate [01:17:05] and he’s so able to to do that. It’s um. Yeah, he’s great. So yeah, my [01:17:10] mum Tony Robbins and Ricky Gervais.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. And the final question, [01:17:15] it’s a deathbed on your on your deathbed, three pieces of advice to [01:17:20] your loved ones. What would they be? Um.

Barry Oulton: Oh [01:17:25] my God. My deathbed. Three pieces of advice. [01:17:30] And that is. It’s about. It’s about. Everything [01:17:35] is about relationships. Everything is about nurturing. [01:17:40] Those relationships that truly mean the most to you doesn’t necessarily mean family, right? [01:17:45] You can’t pick your family. Um, but I would I would encourage [01:17:50] people to be part of a community. I think what’s lacking in the [01:17:55] world over is community. And I think if we really focussed [01:18:00] on and I think maybe that’s why I really love doing what I’m doing [01:18:05] at the moment, because it’s putting together a small group of people in a community [01:18:10] that are supporting one another, that are sharing their journeys, even though they’re all on slightly different [01:18:15] journeys. Some are just started with their practice, some are wanting to exit. So number one is be part [01:18:20] of be part of a community and choose them wisely.

Payman Langroudi: Listen to your loved [01:18:25] ones like that.

Barry Oulton: Number [01:18:30] two, that remember that the language that you label things [01:18:35] determines your reality. So if you can take what you see as a problem [01:18:40] and you can change it into a challenge and then change it into an opportunity, when [01:18:45] you see a situation as an opportunity, you have a whole different set of [01:18:50] of things ahead of you than if you see it as a problem. There is no such thing as a problem. You [01:18:55] might think it is in the in the moment, and then you change it and you label it as an opportunity [01:19:00] and all sorts of doors open up. So I would say turn [01:19:05] a problem into an opportunity and everything will be okay because there’s always a [01:19:10] solution.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant. There’s been a massive pleasure.

Barry Oulton: I thoroughly [01:19:15] enjoyed it. You’ve asked some really interesting questions for me that have that have really made [01:19:20] me think, and I appreciate that very much.

Payman Langroudi: You know, it’s, you know, how I often [01:19:25] think people at their biggest sort of strength is also their biggest vulnerability. [01:19:30] And and I think with you, you’re someone who wears your heart on your sleeve. It’s the best [01:19:35] thing about you. And it also leaves you vulnerable, you know? Yeah. It’s one of those things. I’m open. [01:19:40]

Barry Oulton: To that. I’m open to that. It’s, um, it’s one thing that my dad said, you know, when somebody says to [01:19:45] you, you know, the problem with you, Barry, is and you think, oh, here we go. My dad, when [01:19:50] I was a kid around about 12 years old, my dad said, you know the problem with you, Barry? [01:19:55] I was like, oh, here we go. What’s that? He went, you love everybody until they shit on you. [01:20:00] And I went, well don’t you? And he went, no. I was like, oh. And I think [01:20:05] that is it is that I start out where I just see the good in people. And I [01:20:10] just believe that people are fundamentally good and behaviour does not dictate [01:20:15] them. And so, yeah, I think you wear your heart on your sleeve and you might get a [01:20:20] little, little dumping on now and again, but hey, it’s an opportunity.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:20:25] been a lovely conversation I really enjoyed. Thank you for your time. Thank you so much. Really appreciate.

Barry Oulton: It mate. You look after yourself. [01:20:30]

Payman Langroudi: Thank you buddy.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [01:20:35] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in [01:20:40] dentistry. Your hosts. Payman [01:20:45] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:20:50] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me [01:20:55] and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had [01:21:00] to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

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